Captain America: Civil War

[The Laughing Fish]

And not to get too political, but I'm not liking the direction of Homecoming's casting. It just smacks of a SJW love in. And that turns me off.

I know what you mean. Frankly, I'm sick of that. It's a very warped idea and it seems inescapable in entertainment media nowadays. It's all over the place in the CW network's Arrowverse shows. It's damaging, I don't care what anybody says, and it's unwelcome. TDK, you know exactly what I'm referring to here.

That's nothing. Earlier this year, there were SJWs on Twitter who demanded that Captain America should turn gay and get together with Bucky, because they fantasised them as a couple while watching Civil War.

Of course, they got disappointed when Marvel Comics turned Cap into a Nazi instead. 

So what we are left with is that now they are going to be publicly labled as being a group of enhanced individuals who, in addition, have shown a complete unwillingness to comply with authorities and whose only answer to the consequences of that is to fight their way out. Wow, and Snyder/Goyer got flack for something just like that!

Indeed. What is really annoying me is Lex manipulating Wallace Keefe and public perception to hate Superman for the collateral damage in Metropolis was met with massive criticism, and yet, Civil War shows us a vengeful Zemo turning the Avengers against each other because he holds them responsible for the death of his family. This film has made it perfectly clear that the Avengers are guilty of causing their own collateral damage on three occasions, and as stated by Secretary Ross, they are often accused of being unconcerned of the mess they leave behind. There was even an episode of Jessica Jones where the title character got ambushed by an angry couple because they blamed superhumans for losing their livelihood to the Avengers in NY.

But for some reason, I haven't seen much outcry as we saw in MOS and BvS.

I wouldn't say this particular film is the BEST of the BEST when it comes to MCU films (I think CA: TWS is the better movie), but I believe it's most assuredly in the top 5 of their output thus far.

I personally don't think it comes anywhere near close to the top five. I'd rate the first Avengers, the first two Cap movies, Iron Man 1 and even 3 before Civil War.

[The Joker]

I personally don't think it comes anywhere near close to the top five. I'd rate the first Avengers, the first two Cap movies, Iron Man 1 and even 3 before Civil War.

That's fine. One of the reasons I never really discussed either of the Avengers films in real depth in their respective threads, was because I really didn't get much out of them. Doesn't mean I disliked them, as I did enjoy them for what they were, but both were not really films I would want to discuss for very long. The 2nd Avengers movie (Age of Ultron) was a fun enough watch, but felt very much like your standard summer action movie fare, and the 1st Avengers film was enjoyable, but I personally never was particularly 'wowed' by it either. I kinda put it in the Nolan "Dark Knight" camp. Notable and popular with fans, but not something I personally have the interest in re-watching very much. Civil War was more engaging to me than either one of the Avengers films, as well as Iron Man 3, but I couldn't tell you how well it holds up in subsequent viewings. Yes, I bought the blu, but it's still shrink wrapped on my Marvel DVD/Blu ray shelf!

[The Laughing Fish]

I personally don't think it comes anywhere near close to the top five. I'd rate the first Avengers, the first two Cap movies, Iron Man 1 and even 3 before Civil War.

That's fine. One of the reasons I never really discussed either of the Avengers films in real depth in their respective threads, was because I really didn't get much out of them. Doesn't mean I disliked them, as I did enjoy them for what they were, but both were not really films I would want to discuss for very long. The 2nd Avengers movie (Age of Ultron) was a fun enough watch, but felt very much like your standard summer action movie fare, and the 1st Avengers film was enjoyable, but I personally never was particularly 'wowed' by it either. I kinda put it in the Nolan "Dark Knight" camp. Notable and popular with fans, but not something I personally have the interest in re-watching very much. Civil War was more engaging to me than either one of the Avengers films, as well as Iron Man 3, but I couldn't tell you how well it holds up in subsequent viewings. Yes, I bought the blu, but it's still shrink wrapped on my Marvel DVD/Blu ray shelf!

I see. A common criticism with Marvel films is that they don't have a lot of rewatching value, as you once said yourself. I haven't necessarily agreed with that, although the latest films admittedly haven't stacked up with the earlier efforts for my liking.

Meanwhile, I found this review from a disgruntled MCU fan who claims that Civil War is, in his opinion, the worst film of the entire franchise to date, and his concern with where the rest of the MCU is heading.

I can definitely see his points about Marvel slowly becoming less cinematic in terms of visuals and the trend of leaning towards TV directors, as well as the disparity among critics for praising Civil War for its "fun" but ignoring that it's arguably just as dark as BvS.

But there are some things this guy says that make me scratch my head. Black Panther's treatment in the film is racist, because he has a tribal musical motif? Come on, the guy is disguised as a panther! It would feel out of place if he didn't have a tribal musical beat. And his complaint about this film teaching kids that violence is the only way solution to problems can easily apply to the entire superhero and action genre.

[thecolorsblend]

I'm starting to think superhero fatigue is actually starting to set in for real now. People mentioned it ten years ago (mostly to excuse what a colossal box office failure Superman Returns was) but I'm starting to think it's an actual thing now.

Irrespective, there aren't very many MCU movies I think have repeat value. Short list, really:

Iron Man
First Avenger
Winter Soldier
Thor (mostly for personal) nostalgia
Incredible Hulk

Otherwise I can take or leave the rest of the MCU.

To make this post a bit more on-topic, I do wish the conflict between Cap and Iron Man had been a bit more focused. So many other characters running around sort of crowds their conflict a little bit. Reducing the other characters to something more like cameo appearances and have most of Cap's dialogue directed to Iron Man and most of Iron Man's dialogue directed to Cap would've been a better way to focus things.

Broadly, there are just too damn many characters in CW. Yes, the comic had even more characters... but they also had dozens of tie-in's, miniseries and all that other stuff to broaden the canvas. A movie has 2.5 hours to get to the point and CW as a movie muddied the waters a lot.

CW could've been really innovative. An entire phase of MCU where the characters pick sides and do their own thing would've been the better way to go. It could've been a true crossover story unlike anything ever done in cinema before... but instead it's just another action movie with too many characters and too little narrative focus.

[The Laughing Fish]

It turns out Mark Millar, who wrote the Civil War comics, wasn't crazy about the film.

"Civil War had a good opening twenty mins, but then I honestly can't remember what the movie was about. It's interesting the Russos have a background in comedy because it's really missing in these otherwise well-made pictures and very, very missed."

"I really hope this bleakness doesn't extend into their two Avengers pictures because what made that first Avengers work was the light as well as shade and I'll be sad if that's all lost like it was in this picture."

Source: http://comicbook.com/marvel/2016/12/20/creator-mark-millar-was-not-impressed-with-captain-america-civil/

I don't think a lack of comedy was an issue in this film; as a matter of fact, the use of comedy during the second act mismatched an otherwise melodramatic film.

[thecolorsblend]

Dang, I should've replied to this a long time ago...

The race thing seems like it came out of nowhere and is based on nothing. But otherwise I think the guy is on point. He raised a few things I remember bothering me during the one time I saw CW but then kind of forgot about because, honestly, other things bugged me more.

But if you tally up the total number of bothersome issues, they all point to CW just not being a good movie.

Still, the MCU is the zeitgeist of superhero cinema right now so unless a flagrantly horrible MCU movie comes along, it won't be called out for being bad. Ant Man, for example, is unbelievably weak but none dare say so because muh Marvel.

Meanwhile, so far the DCEU has been really solid, both creatively and financially but its climbing one hell of a mountain just for recognition.

Disclosures
- I'm a DC fan at heart. I enjoy Marvel but fundamentally I'll always be an outsider there. Yeah, I dig some Spider-Man comics and some X-Men comics and a few Cap comics too but you don't get to call yourself a "Marvel fan" based just on that stuff. So my biases may well be affecting my judgment.

- I spent all or most of the 2000's utterly disgusted with WB's movie division so the fact that they're offering semi-decent material now could also be affecting my judgment.

- I recently made a lot of peace with my Batman fandom. I'm a Superman fan first... which isn't an easy condition in this age of obnoxious Batman fans on Facebook with their insipid memes that have to demean other characters (especially Superman) in order to praise Batman. Again, could affect my judgment.

- Affleck is a contender for my favorite live action Batman of all time. Might affect my judgment.

The above conditions notwithstanding, I do believe I'm not going crazy. The MCU is objectively less entertaining to me than the DCEU, at least to me.

[The Laughing Fish]

Still, the MCU is the zeitgeist of superhero cinema right now so unless a flagrantly horrible MCU movie comes along, it won't be called out for being bad. Ant Man, for example, is unbelievably weak but none dare say so because muh Marvel.

Ant-Man doesn't come across anywhere near as bad as Iron Man 2, in my opinion. I'd describe IM2 as THE worst film of the MCU to date. Waste of Mickey Rourke, who gets shoved aside for Sam Rockwell's incredibly annoying Justin Hammer, Downey simply phoning it in, and an aimless plot for two hours. What a piece of sh*t.

Thankfully, Marvel bounced back with Thor and Captain America: The First Avenger.

[The Dark Knight]

- I recently made a lot of peace with my Batman fandom. I'm a Superman fan first... which isn't an easy condition in this age of obnoxious Batman fans on Facebook with their insipid memes that have to demean other characters (especially Superman) in order to praise Batman. Again, could affect my judgment.

I commend you for staying strong in your Batman fandom. The whiny Superman fan is often mocked and belittled on the internet, and honestly, I think for good reason. Superman fans need to be much like yourself. Empowered because they know the character is great. Someone who will wear that yellow and red shield with pride down the street, like myself. I see a lot of 'hard done by' big blue supporters and that annoys me, to be honest. Get on the front foot and shrug off the smears. The character has a lot to celebrate and I'd like to see that more often. Big blue fans need to move beyond that whole victimhood mentality. I say this as a Superman fan too - even if I'm not as passionate as you colors. I just think we need to stand strong. He's an icon and honestly, Captian America doesn't come close.



That's why we need this character.

[The Joker]

I see. A common criticism with Marvel films is that they don't have a lot of rewatching value, as you once said yourself. I haven't necessarily agreed with that, although the latest films admittedly haven't stacked up with the earlier efforts for my liking.

Some of the MCU's earlier efforts don't hold much re-watch value for me either, while some of the later one's actually do. Personal preference and all that. I can see myself revisiting Ant-Man, or Dr. Strange from time to time. Iron Man 2/3, Avengers/Ultron? Not so much.

Meanwhile, I found this review from a disgruntled MCU fan who claims that Civil War is, in his opinion, the worst film of the entire franchise to date, and his concern with where the rest of the MCU is heading.

I can definitely see his points about Marvel slowly becoming less cinematic in terms of visuals and the trend of leaning towards TV directors, as well as the disparity among critics for praising Civil War for its "fun" but ignoring that it's arguably just as dark as BvS.

Oh brother. I tend to tune out online critics these days as much as I do alot of the so-called political analysts, but saying Civil War is the worst film in the MCU is really coming across like he's trying too hard to be a attention whore. Atleast he's bright enough in his review to throw in not-so-valid reasons (like the Black Panther one you pointed out), along with actual valid criticisms in order to prolong the video's run time. I guess such a approach will garner him more views, but his ignorance towards problems with other MCU films like the Thor films, the Iron Man sequels, or the Avengers follow-up leaves alot to be desired.

And his complaint about this film teaching kids that violence is the only way solution to problems can easily apply to the entire superhero and action genre.

Yeah, he's (again) really reaching there.

[thecolorsblend]

The violence thing lines up more against, say, Star Trek Into Darkness. If ever there was a movie where the implicit message is Might Makes Right, there it is. Putting aside the stupidity of retreading Wrath of Khan, Khan has legitimate grievances. For that matter, Kirk has legitimate grievances too.

Kirk wins in his conflict with Khan though so that means Kirk is right... doesn't it? The fact that Kirk's brand of ruthlessness and brutality defeated Khan's brand of ruthlessness and brutality makes him superior, doesn't it?

Yes, as you all say this can be said of many action movies. But rarely has it been so prominent and all-but-explicit as Into Darkness. Yeah, CW has problems but it's no worse about Might Making Right than a lot of other movies while ID IS worse about it. And dammit, that's not what Star Trek is supposed to be.

Sorry to derail the discussion but it's almost 1am and I can barely see straight.