This really upsets me

[johnnygobbs]

I know a lot of people here hate the Nolan films and love Batman Returns, but it really angers me that this contrast exists.  If Bale's Batman could save bleedin' Rachel Dawes, who ends up dying anyway, why couldn't Keaton's Batman save the Ice Princess?!? 

I am happy to read intelligent arguments as to why he could save Dawes but not the Princess.

By the way, this clip isn't anything to do with me.  I just discovered it, so please don't blame me for its existence.

[Edd Grayson]

Rachel Dawes was Bruce's girlfriend, who does not exist in the comics and was played by two actresses, but that's not important right now. There's no real point to compare them, very different characters and what purpose they had in the films.

The Princess was wealthy and very different looking, and I'd say better than Maggie Gyllenhaal as well as Katie Holmes, and not a very bright person, despite lighting trees  , and who could not save herself by stepping off the ledge.

Rachel was supposed to be like a female Harvey Dent as well as a love interest in the first film, or so I figured, and in TDK they made the decision of having her forced to make a decision between the White Knight and the Dark Knight and ended up in a situation where Batman was tricked into not saving her. So may I remind you that this damsel in distress situation is not a fair comparison with Batman Returns.

Basically, I don't think clip should be any more relevant than another one with Aaron Eckhart's Two-Face shooting Jack Napier because Jack says"Eckhardt! Think about the future!"

[Catwoman]

Comparing anything Keaton's Batman did to something Baleman did is ridiculous. It's totally apples and oranges. First off, Nolan and Bale's interpretation of Batman is completely different from Tim and Michael's version, and they're depicted at different points of their careers too. Secondly, Rachel is Bruce's childhood friend/sweetheart who he is still smitten with. The Ice Princess in life is irrelevant to Batman, which doesn't mean he wouldn't try to save her. He did but she was too stupid to be saved.

The reason one was able to save his "damsel" and the other wasn't is because one was written to be able to save her. Baleman getting to Rachel before she hit the car was really far fetched to me, and that's even with her buying some time by sliding along the building before the actual fall started. The Ice Princess, by the time Batman could have even gotten to the ledge once she fell she was out of reach.  Unless his suit had Batman Beyond capabilities there was no way he could have caught her.

Long story short, you need to get the hell over it. If she had been intelligent enough to live, she would have lived. She was written for a couple cheap laughs and mainly to be used as an accessory in trying to bring down Batman and nothing more. Guess what? Plenty of real girls go through life just like that and if they don't end up with a similar fate they're very lucky because they're too stupid to live. That's what she was meant to represent. Get over it.

[Catwoman]

Eddward beat me to it but we're basically in agreement.

[Edd Grayson]

Eddward beat me to it but we're basically in agreement.

"Sometimes counting on someone else is the only way to win." 

[johnnygobbs]

Comparing anything Keaton's Batman did to something Baleman did is ridiculous. It's totally apples and oranges. First off, Nolan and Bale's interpretation of Batman is completely different from Tim and Michael's version, and they're depicted at different points of their careers too. Secondly, Rachel is Bruce's childhood friend/sweetheart who he is still smitten with. The Ice Princess in life is irrelevant to Batman, which doesn't mean he wouldn't try to save her. He did but she was too stupid to be saved.

The reason one was able to save his "damsel" and the other wasn't is because one was written to be able to save her. Baleman getting to Rachel before she hit the car was really far fetched to me, and that's even with her buying some time by sliding along the building before the actual fall started. The Ice Princess, by the time Batman could have even gotten to the ledge once she fell she was out of reach.  Unless his suit had Batman Beyond capabilities there was no way he could have caught her.

Long story short, you need to get the hell over it. If she had been intelligent enough to live, she would have lived. She was written for a couple cheap laughs and mainly to be used as an accessory in trying to bring down Batman and nothing more. Guess what? Plenty of real girls go through life just like that and if they don't end up with a similar fate they're very lucky because they're too stupid to live. That's what she was meant to represent. Get over it.

Guess what?

I actually agree with most of what you've said.    Including this: "If she had been intelligent enough to live, she would have lived...Plenty of real girls go through life just like that and if they don't end up with a similar fate they're very lucky because they're too stupid to live. That's what she was meant to represent."

But I still needed to read someone else rationalise these differences.

But you do raise a more serious point unrelated to Batman Returns and the Ice Princess., and that's how ridiculous that scene of Batman saving Rachel Dawes was, in what was meant to be a 'realistic' Batman film. 

[Catwoman]

Eddward beat me to it but we're basically in agreement.

"Sometimes counting on someone else is the only way to win." 

I wasn't counting on you, I was typing mine at the same time and didn't see yours til after I hit post. lol.

[Edd Grayson]

Eddward beat me to it but we're basically in agreement.

"Sometimes counting on someone else is the only way to win." 

I wasn't counting on you, I was typing mine at the same time and didn't see yours til after I hit post. lol.

Yeah, I know. I just wanted to say that. 

[thecolorsblend]

I am happy to read intelligent arguments as to why he could save Dawes but not the Princess.

It could be that one narrative required that Batman be able to save Rachel while the other narrative required that Batman be unable to save the Ice Princess.

[Edd Grayson]

I am happy to read intelligent arguments as to why he could save Dawes but not the Princess.

It could be that one narrative required that Batman be able to save Rachel while the other narrative required that Batman be unable to save the Ice Princess.

Like Nora Fries was required to die and Alfred to live.