Wonder Woman (2017)

[The Laughing Fish]

While I enjoyed Diana's journey into WWI, I couldn't help but feel the conclusion doesn't gel too well with her participation in BvS.

Nothing in WW contradicts BvS.

The film opened in the present day, and while I'm paraphrasing, she says all men not being good is a lesson she learned the hard way. The final scene of WonderGal jumping into action in full costume also takes place in the present day - after the events of BvS which reinvigorated her sense of heroism. In the WW1 sequences she says "fighting for mankind is less important than being a force for love", which leads me to believe she simply remained in the background right up until she fought Doomsday. If I were WB, I'd set the sequel in modern times as well.

I'm revisiting this again. I'm not convinced by this answer, because it turns out Gal Gadot came out during a press junket for Justice League last year confirming there was a retcon between BvS and WW.

Video link: https://twitter.com/RefaelDlachmish/status/923525128788553728

Just in case that video expires, here's a transcript of what she said:

None of us knew exactly, exactly, what's the backstory of Wonder Woman. And once they decided to shoot the solo movie, [the] Wonder Woman movie, and we started to dig in and understand the core of the character, we realized that actually there is no way that Wonder Woman will EVER give up on mankind. The reason why she left the island was because she wanted to make their life better and safer. They are her colleagues, so I'm giving you a very honest answer, that it was sometimes, you know, creative processes establish something that is not necessarily the right decision. But then you can always correct it and change it. So Wonder Woman will always be there as far as she [has] concerns for mankind.

[Catwoman]

Yea I went into Wonder Woman thinking "Well this is not going to end well for anybody" because of her attitude in BvS. I was pleasantly surprised (poor Steve, though) but at the same time I was like "Well what in the world happened after that to make her like that later?"

That's the problem with establishing a "here and now" that is a bit unpleasant and then trying to go back and show how the here and now came to be. With someone like Batman, it's easy. Diana, like Supes, is one of those "beacons of hope" characters, ya know? I mean it works ok in BvS to have her be the way she is, but does anyone really want to see a movie of how Wonder Woman ends up how she's portrayed there? I know I don't, I'm depressed enough as it is thank you very much. I'm glad they decided to abandon that.

The more I think about it, Zack Snyder not was the right guy to set the whole tone with BvS and Man of Steel before that. They're good movies, don't get me wrong, but it's not the direction they should have gone in my opinion. Now a solo Batman movie done by Snyder? Hell yes, sign me up. But someone else should have handled Superman, the same way Patty Jenkins did with Wonder Woman, and he wasn't the right person to bring all three together, either. Don't get me started on David Ayer with Suicide Squad. I hate to say it because I've liked a lot of what we've seen and I love the cast of all the movies, they got those perfect, but it feels like they need to start over again. What would be nice is if they could kind of retcon it all but keep Ben, Henry, and so on in the roles.

[The Dark Knight]

Perfectly stated, TDK.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your astute observation of Orwell's 1984. It definitely would fit into a narrative, and possibly Diana's fears of mankind accepting such a future.

Why, thank you Joker.

On the topic of retcons, let's see what official canon says.

Bruce to Diana: "You shut yourself down for a century, so let's not talk about me moving on."

Hmmm.

[The Laughing Fish]

The more I think about it, Zack Snyder not was the right guy to set the whole tone with BvS and Man of Steel before that. They're good movies, don't get me wrong, but it's not the direction they should have gone in my opinion. Now a solo Batman movie done by Snyder? Hell yes, sign me up. But someone else should have handled Superman, the same way Patty Jenkins did with Wonder Woman, and he wasn't the right person to bring all three together, either.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. If you liked what you saw despite some quibbles here and there, why do you feel they need to start all over again? Never mind the fact that it doesn't recognise Superman's sacrifices and actions to persist in saving the planet in spite of doubt and hostility. In my opinion, rewriting Diana's role in the present day doesn't change the fact that Wonder Woman is a pretty dark film. Even the character herself is pretty bloodthirsty in her intentions to end the war.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just curious, that's all.

On the topic of retcons, let's see what official canon says.

Bruce to Diana: "You shut yourself down for a century, so let's not talk about me moving on."

Hmmm.

It still doesn't change that they intended to retcon Wonder Woman, unfortunately. And let's face it, continuity in the DCEU gets further diminished when JL had changed the extent of Victor Stone's bodily disfigurement before he became Cyborg.

[Catwoman]

The more I think about it, Zack Snyder not was the right guy to set the whole tone with BvS and Man of Steel before that. They're good movies, don't get me wrong, but it's not the direction they should have gone in my opinion. Now a solo Batman movie done by Snyder? Hell yes, sign me up. But someone else should have handled Superman, the same way Patty Jenkins did with Wonder Woman, and he wasn't the right person to bring all three together, either.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. If you liked what you saw despite some quibbles here and there, why do you feel they need to start all over again? Never mind the fact that it doesn't recognise Superman's sacrifices and actions to persist in saving the planet in spite of doubt and hostility. In my opinion, rewriting Diana's role in the present day doesn't change the fact that Wonder Woman is a pretty dark film. Even the character herself is pretty bloodthirsty in her intentions to end the war.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just curious, that's all.

I look at what I like and then what's best in the bigger picture. If I have to separate the two, I can do that. I enjoyed the movies (talking about MoS and BvS) myself, but they don't really set the right tone for Superman or Wonder Woman. For a stand-alone direct to video type thing, sure, they're great. For DC and WB's movie franchise, it wasn't so great. I see why people didn't care for it. Justice League did correct that a bit (the second Man of Steel movie should be wonderful), so maybe I'm going overboard by suggesting they start over. But it doesn't change that I feel that it started in the wrong place for those two. Like I said, a stand alone Batman movie by Snyder? I would have been first in line (wouldn't have stayed there because I would have had to tinkle and I get hungry but still). I'm not dissing him. I just don't feel like he's the right guy for the other two even if I happened to like the movies myself.

[The Laughing Fish]

I look at what I like and then what's best in the bigger picture. If I have to separate the two, I can do that. I enjoyed the movies (talking about MoS and BvS) myself, but they don't really set the right tone for Superman or Wonder Woman. For a stand-alone direct to video type thing, sure, they're great. For DC and WB's movie franchise, it wasn't so great. I see why people didn't care for it.

Frankly, those people don't deserve any regard because too many of them have double standards. There are much darker superhero films than Snyder's two DC films, and yet those were celebrated, instead of being criticised for their own bleak subtext.

Now, anybody has the right to say a movie sucks. I do that all the time after all. But complaining about the tone for a Superman movie is pretty suspect because no matter how light the Reeve films appear to be, they also have many dark moments. Krypton's destruction in S78, for example, was one of the most terrifying scenes I've ever watched growing up. The fear and dread I felt as a kid seeing every Kryptonian fall to their bottomless graves and screaming in horror as the whole planet collapses around them is something I haven't forgotten.

Putting that aside, and I hate to beat a dead horse yet again, but I can't take anybody seriously who had complained Superman "murdered" Zod in cold blood, but turn around and say Diana was a fun hero who should be an example to the rest of the DCEU, ignoring the fact she killed who knows how many soldiers and executed the wrong man, remorselessly I might add. I may like Gadot in the role and she definitely has charisma. But I'm not going to ignore her character is being held to a different standard than the others despite doing the same things they've been condemned for. If people say enjoy WW as their favourite DC movie, so be it. But I don't see how it's any less darker than MOS and BvS.

[The Joker]

Interesting video comparing the trailers for the 2017 Wonder Woman movie with the Blu Ray release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTcVwpLBxm0&t=59s&list=FL2E_KOhE1_wJT8fltjHkXsA&index=20

[Dagenspear]

Frankly, those people don't deserve any regard because too many of them have double standards. There are much darker superhero films than Snyder's two DC films, and yet those were celebrated, instead of being criticised for their own bleak subtext.

Now, anybody has the right to say a movie sucks. I do that all the time after all. But complaining about the tone for a Superman movie is pretty suspect because no matter how light the Reeve films appear to be, they also have many dark moments. Krypton's destruction in S78, for example, was one of the most terrifying scenes I've ever watched growing up. The fear and dread I felt as a kid seeing every Kryptonian fall to their bottomless graves and screaming in horror as the whole planet collapses around them is something I haven't forgotten.

Putting that aside, and I hate to beat a dead horse yet again, but I can't take anybody seriously who had complained Superman "murdered" Zod in cold blood, but turn around and say Diana was a fun hero who should be an example to the rest of the DCEU, ignoring the fact she killed who knows how many soldiers and executed the wrong man, remorselessly I might add. I may like Gadot in the role and she definitely has charisma. But I'm not going to ignore her character is being held to a different standard than the others despite doing the same things they've been condemned for. If people say enjoy WW as their favourite DC movie, so be it. But I don't see how it's any less darker than MOS and BvS.

I think you put too much emphasis on the phrase dark and not on the actual way that darkness is done.

Logan is dark. TDKT arguably is dark. But those movies are viewed as well done, not I think because they are or aren't dark. But because those people see them as well done. In the case of WW, her killing has context in the movie. Clark just does it. It's not apart of an arc, he's over it in the next scene after letting out a cry, it doesn't matter. The destruction of metropolis doesn't matter and Clark has no reaction to it. WW kills an enhanced guy because she thinks it will end the war and when that fails she has to come to grips with the idea that her perception about people is wrong, she has an emotional reaction to that and learns a lesson from it. When that village is killed it serves to build on Diana's character. She has a reaction to it. Clark doesn't. He doesn't in BvS either.

[The Joker]

Wonder Woman 1984 Breakfast Club homage

[Silver Nemesis]

The Breakfast Club poster must be one of the most parodied in film history.