did anyone have a problem with Batman killing back then?

[mrrockey]

For those that saw this back in '89(I wasn't born yet), do any of you remember anyone having a problem with Batman killing back then?

Now I'm not justifying or condemning Burton's decision to have Batman kill in his films, but it's something I've been wondering since with today's Batman fans, many of them don't consider this to be the "true" Batman since he's a murderer, but it didn't seem to be a problem with folks back then, and I'm assuming Batman hasn't killed in decades in the comics by that point(haven't read them, sorry). It does puzzle me how people seemed to dislike the inclusion of Joker being the murderer of the Waynes from day one, but they are fine with him going Charles Bronson Death Wish style on the bad guys he faces.

Discuss...

[Wayne49]

I saw it opening weekend and was in college at that time. I don't recall any remarks regarding how he handled really anyone in the film. You need some context here. Before this film was released, all society knew was Adam West as Batman (with all due respect to the serials). And there was a stigma attached to the character of Batman at that time because of the camp associated with the series. So the real obstacle here was selling Batman as a serious hero who audiences could accept in serious situations.

Conventional wisdom of the day suggested he had to be placed in tights. But how could you sell the hero seriously in tights since West was so married to that image? Those were the obstacles and on the lips of allot of people. Couple that with the very controversial selection of Keaton to play the lead role who was known for Mr. Mom and BeatleJuice and there was such an uproar that a petition was taken out to demand he be taken off the production. Thank God social media did not exist at this time. I still have the Wall Street Journal edition that reported this petition with an illustration of Keaton at the start of the article. During this time, if you made front page headlines on an industry newspaper, there was serious noise about that subject matter. So everyone was really wondering what in the world we were going to get with Mr. Mom in a bat costume.

So any thoughts of Batman "killing" someone or being connected with the death of someone was probably about as far off the mark as you could find. Batman '89 was about one thing and one thing only - Selling Batman as a new franchise to match the relevance of what Superman had done in 1978. Without social media, the world was not obsessed over character motivations or costume details like nipples. I think what stands out to me the most about Batman '89 is the first trailer. I can't BEGIN to explain to you how INSANE people went over the first sight and sound of Batman. Have you ever wondered why the phrase "I'm Batman" has been ingrained in our cultural consciousness as much as it has? This is why. The first time anyone saw or heard Batman was in this trailer and people freaked. He looked great. He sounded even better. And most importantly? He didn't look like Adam West in tights. He looked like Batman had just hopped off the comic page and become flesh and bone.

So in 1989, Batman getting the serious treatment was all anyone cared about and Burton delivered in spades. It was an amazing experience sitting in that theater and watching this hero come to life. The sold out crowd I saw this with, stood up and applauded at the end when Batman stood next to the Bat-signal. Our beloved hero had stepped outside of that long shadow of the '66 show and was now his own entity. I never heard (nor ever thought) about any of the deaths in that movie being anything more than incidental and consequential to the circumstances involved. The fact that Batman was bloodied and fighting to save Vicky Vale (in addition to his own life) only leant more credibility to his existence in 1989 and provided that much needed layer of edginess he never possessed in film. He was exactly what everyone had hoped for. And I'll say this again as I have in other threads. That suit concept really opened the door for the entire industry.

Being able to convey the hero in molded rubber completely changed the production standards of what you could do. That thinking was really outside the box for it's day and pushed designers to start looking beyond the standard ideas with tights. So I think it's reasonably fair to say Batman '89 really provided that first significant step towards creating the industry we have today.

[JokerMeThis]

I never cared about Batman killing people. But I didn't know anything about the comics until just a few years ago. Knowing what I know now I still don't care. The Burton Batman movies are quite faithful to what 1939 Batman was like when the character was created in regards to his morals, ethics and killing villains. He is a dark, angry, vengeful vigilante who comes close to being an anti-hero. In the Schumacher movies Batman evolves into a humanist and I'd say that's a good metaphor for how the character evolved in the comics.

[The Dark Knight]

Only when you think of the morally right, humanist Adam West Batman do you realise how drastic it all must have seemed to the general public back in 89-92 - especially blowing the strongman to bits with the bomb. Yes, the Burton films were based on the original comics. But I also think they were also reaction to the West show, even though elements of it were still evident - such as the Penguin's election. The Burton films were a game changer for the Batman brand. They made everyone realise the character could be portrayed in a different manner and be successful. Adam West was annoyed Keaton was taking the mantle, for starters. He wanted to reprise the role. In his mind, and an entire generation, he WAS Batman. But as the Penguin said, things change.

[Edd Grayson]

I never cared about it in the movies either. But when people try to say that Nolan's Batman didn't kill anyone, I have a problem with their reasoning.

[The Dark Knight]

If someone is going to kill, I'd much prefer them to intentionally do it. Otherwise they're just incompetent and far more dangerous.

[The Laughing Fish]

Nice analyses Wayne49 and TDK.

Good comment too to you JMT. It makes me wonder if the influence on the 39 comic era was a conscious decision to pay tribute to Batman's 50th anniversary at the time when the film was released. 

I never cared about it in the movies either. But when people try to say that Nolan's Batman didn't kill anyone, I have a problem with their reasoning.

I've noticed that lots of people tend to use the scene of Batman smiling at the Strongman before sending him to hell in BR as their huge gripe. A scene that was used for a cheap laugh suddenly became a moral outcry, despite Batman was responsible for more deaths in the first film.

RE: the comics, you can always look up in the 'Comics in which Batman kills' thread that has archives of Batman offing villains, even as late as the 1980s. Though I have noticed that in a lot of these comics, Batman's moral conscience does not become a plot point. At least the ones I read anyway.

[thecolorsblend]

My recollection is that basically nobody had a problem with Burton's brutal Batman until the late 90's, when Internet Groupthink, Inc. took over.

[The Dark Knight]

I've noticed that lots of people tend to use the scene of Batman smiling at the Strongman before sending him to hell in BR as their huge gripe. A scene that was used for a cheap laugh suddenly became a moral outcry, despite Batman was responsible for more deaths in the first film.

Indeed. The offing of the strongman is very much in line with Keaton's MO. In B89, he puts the swordsman down with one kick. He raises his gauntlet and down goes a Cathedral thug. You get the idea. A bomb was available and Keaton used it - ending the confrontation before it even began.

[KeatonisBatman]

My recollection is that basically nobody had a problem with Burton's brutal Batman until the late 90's, when Internet Groupthink, Inc. took over.

Nope, nobody cared.  If they did, I guess they kept it to themselves.  I don't recall actually seeing anyone "die" in the 89 Batman movie.  And by that I mean draw their last breath.  Burton was quite clever in the way he filmed it.  Death was implied (how could the head thug live after falling from the bell tower?) but never shown.  Even the fat guy who got the quill stuck in his neck might've lived for all we know.  Heck, the death of Eckhardt got more screen time than the other onscreen deaths.