did anyone have a problem with Batman killing back then?

[The Joker]

I don't really get the impression the costume's cameo is anything else other than an Easter Egg.

That's how I always took it as well.

Nothing more than Schumacher giving a nudge nudge, wink wink, "Hey you remember these villains don't cha!?!" kinda easter egg.

[johnnygobbs]

That's how I always took it as well.

Nothing more than Schumacher giving a nudge nudge, wink wink, "Hey you remember these villains don't cha!?!" kinda easter egg.

Considering how distinctive the Riddler and Two-Face's costume are, it was a great gag. 

Plus, like I said earlier, it's perfectly possible Two-Face had multiple suits, and this suit was from before his incarceration in Arkham (originally Batman Forever was to open with him escaping the asylum).

[KeatonisBatman]

I disagree. If Schumacher wanted to convey the message that Two-Face was still alive, he would've tried to make it clearer e.g. showing a newspaper headline saying "Two-Face alive? Former DA sighted in Gotham City" or a line of dialogue or something. I don't really get the impression the costume's cameo is anything else other than an Easter Egg.

Well you don't have to disagree with me because I do think Two-Face died.  I'm just saying that the pristine Two-Face costume from Batman & Robin opens up discussion that maybe he didn't die.  It may in fact be an easter egg as you said.

[Dagenspear]

I disagree. If Schumacher wanted to convey the message that Two-Face was still alive, he would've tried to make it clearer e.g. showing a newspaper headline saying "Two-Face alive? Former DA sighted in Gotham City" or a line of dialogue or something. I don't really get the impression the costume's cameo is anything else other than an Easter Egg.

Schumacher himself stated that the Two-Face's fate was left to be ambiguous. He didn't have to do anymore than what he did. If you're determined to view that Two-Face was killed, well that's boring and I don't know why that's something someone would specifically want, let alone argue with someone about.

That's what you are trying to do with Two-Face. Trying to get away from the obvious. Going by your flimsy logic, Bane is still alive in TDK Rises because we don't see his body again after the cannons are fired. Two-Face hit a watery grave with spikes, designed to kill whoever falls into it. You arguing Two-Face survived this scenario stretches your credibility. If we didn't see The Joker's crushed body on the floor after his fall from the cathedral, you'd likely be saying how he still could be alive, too. Which I say such logic deserves to be laughed at. May Xenu bless you.

You're taking this way too seriously. I agreed. They didn't die. That bomb was a great fake. What's the big deal? And there were no spikes where he landed. If you wanna belittle me or anyone over a movie where a character didn't die, then please just don't engage with me. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless you both! God bless everyone!

[The Dark Knight]

They didn't die. That bomb was a great fake. What's the big deal?

[riddler]

SO two face either dies or becomes a vegetable? I can't imagine for the life of me how his body would be recovered let alone surviving
-the distance of the fall
-the fact that if the fall didn't kill him, he wasn't conscious and thus would have drowned
-Batman and Robin both remarking the island is a giant death trap. There's no way they'd go down there to attempt to save two face
-it's an island so emergency assistance couldn't get to him quickly
-if Harvey did manage to save himself, how did he end up in Arkham? That's a plot hole if you are making that argument.
-either way there is no way the suit he was wearing was the same one we saw in Batman and Robin. Edward Nygma was also not wearing the same suit we eventually saw in Batman and Robin when he was captured so presumably it had to be recovered from his lair (or perhaps claw island) which is likely the same way they got harvey's suit


With respect to Clooney I think most of us (basically anyone who saw his film and wants to actually DISCUSS it instead of simply saying it sucked) agree that his portrayal of Bruce Wayne was excellent, especially his scenes with Alfred. The man can act, nobody doubts that and most would admit he is a better actor than Kilmer, maybe even Keaton. He fails as Batman by default due to lack of effort although it's well documented he seemed to realize the film would be awful while it was filming so he hammed it up and acted based on how he thought it would fit into the film. I'm sure he'd have acted differently in a darker film but we will never know.

[The Laughing Fish]

SO two face either dies or becomes a vegetable? I can't imagine for the life of me how his body would be recovered let alone surviving
-the distance of the fall
-the fact that if the fall didn't kill him, he wasn't conscious and thus would have drowned
-Batman and Robin both remarking the island is a giant death trap. There's no way they'd go down there to attempt to save two face
-it's an island so emergency assistance couldn't get to him quickly
-if Harvey did manage to save himself, how did he end up in Arkham? That's a plot hole if you are making that argument.
-either way there is no way the suit he was wearing was the same one we saw in Batman and Robin. Edward Nygma was also not wearing the same suit we eventually saw in Batman and Robin when he was captured so presumably it had to be recovered from his lair (or perhaps claw island) which is likely the same way they got harvey's suit

Exactly right on all counts. There's no believable way anybody could seriously argue that Two-Face survived, unless you're rewriting the script in your mind.

[thecolorsblend]

Schumacher's stated intent is Two-Face's fall in the movie may or may not have resulted in his death. It's intentionally ambiguous. So if you want Two-Face to have died, he died. If you don't, then he didn't.

Why would his outfit be in Arkham Asylum if he died? Well, apart from the Easter Egg factor, there's the reality that Two-Face was no stranger to Arkham so it stands to reason that his suit would be there from previous incarcerations. Hell, maybe it was even part of his therapy there. So it could be left over from when he was alive.

The fire-breather from Batman Returns was indeed set on fire... while he was surrounded by snow and I think a fountain full of water as well. Yeah, he was probably grievously injured but it seems a bit much to say he definitely died from his injuries.

[The Laughing Fish]

Schumacher's stated intent is Two-Face's fall in the movie may or may not have resulted in his death. It's intentionally ambiguous. So if you want Two-Face to have died, he died. If you don't, then he didn't.

I think our fellow poster The Joker said it best seven months ago: if Two-Face's fate was supposed to be ambiguous, then Schumacher failed miserably. Besides, even if I wanted to imagine Two-Face was still alive, it's hard to ignore everything pointing out to the contrary, from Robin's spiteful reaction to the unscarred side of the coin landing on Two-Face's motionless hand, as it drowns into the water.

[GoNerdYourself]

For those that saw this back in '89(I wasn't born yet), do any of you remember anyone having a problem with Batman killing back then?

Now I'm not justifying or condemning Burton's decision to have Batman kill in his films, but it's something I've been wondering since with today's Batman fans, many of them don't consider this to be the "true" Batman since he's a murderer, but it didn't seem to be a problem with folks back then, and I'm assuming Batman hasn't killed in decades in the comics by that point(haven't read them, sorry). It does puzzle me how people seemed to dislike the inclusion of Joker being the murderer of the Waynes from day one, but they are fine with him going Charles Bronson Death Wish style on the bad guys he faces.

Discuss...

I don't mind his killings in Burton's films. In the first film, in a lot of scenes he's trying to stay alive. The scene that comes to mind if the fight on top the cathedral. One guy just flat out misses him. Another guy is definitely fighting to kill him, so I do consider a lot of that scene, in loose terms, self-defense. He does murder the Joker, but I've always kind of liked that moment. "You know, sometimes I just kill myself!"

I was a kid at the time, so I don't remember much of the controversies about the killing, the Joker killing his parents, and the Vicki Vale thing. But I can say that out of the three, the one that bothers me the most is the Vicki Vale scene. Not really because Alfred wouldn't let her in the cave, but because it's the worst scene in the movie and feels so tacked on and soap opera-ish.