The Dark Knight Criticism

[Grissom]

I agree that the views of TDk are evening out and people are starting to see and discuss some of the flaws. Even over at the TDK boards, it's not as hyper as it used to be and I am actually starting to see people looking back at Burton's films (especially the first) and giving it soome well deserved praise. TDK does have a few slipups in my opinion but overall it's still a great film.

[gordonblu]

I enjoyed both Batman Begins and the Dark Knight for what Nolan was trying to do. He was trying to make Batman "plausible" in a "realistic" setting. On the other hand, I feel the attempt to be realistic sucks some of the fun out of Batman. I loved the visual style of Burton's Batman. The combination of 40's and 80's. I love 40's styles. The double breasted suits, the fedoras, TOMMY GUNS! Whoo! And nothing says classic Batman to me than seeing him beat up a bunch of "Godfather" thugs. Also, many of his villains are crazy variations on the classic mobster. Most of his rogues gallery are guys in suits! So while, like I said, I like the"realistic" approach, my heart belongs to the stylized, german expressionistic, FUN Batman films.


I did like Heath Ledger's Joker a lot! I actually thought with the dark circles and the stringy hair that he looked more like a Tim Burton Joker than Nicholson. As far as Nicholson went, the only complaint I had with his joker was the costume. The double breasted vest with the round edge gave the false impression that he was chubby. If you look at him earlier when he's electrocuting Rotelli, that suit, while more traditional made him look thinner.  I do like the fact that Nicholson's physique is a little stockier. It makes him look like more of a physical threat, in fact I wish they actually played up on that and had a more evenly matched battle in the bell tower, but I just don't think that style of vest, in conjuncture with the tail coat, was a smart idea. I did like Ledger's coat and wished that they would have had something like that for Nicholson, shorter than an overcoat, but longer than a blazer. Or they could have put him in a zoot suit like the mask only purple. That would have been Awesome and again ties it into the 40's.



I really went off on a tangent there, sorry.

I loved Ledger's protrayal in the Dark Knight primarily because he reminded me of the Joker's first appearance in the comics, back when He was more scary than funny. Ledger was funny, but it was a lot of nervous laughter on my part. The magic trick was sick and terrble, and I loved it! Same thing with him plodding out of the hospital in the nurse's outfit.

They could have used the acid bath in the film if they really wanted to. There are certain acids that bleach instead of completely burn. He coul have climbed with his clothes all faded, and skin and hair white, gone crazy and painted the rest of the look on, just like in the film. Another option would be to  depict him as an ablino who dyed his hair and smeared his make-up on etc. etc. But they didn't and still enjoyed the performance. In my opinion he was true to the character even though the exterior was changed.

As for Harvey Dent, I loved his character development, but felt shorted when it came to Two-Face. You can't relegated Batman's 2nd best villain to having a one evening killing spree and then, supposedly, killng him off. We just saw Batman and Rachel fall a greater distance, and survive, yet according to everyone Two-Face is now dead. To me that is sloppy. I also didn't like the fact that they used CGI on His face. I certainly didn't want the clown make-up that Tomy Lee Jones wore, but you don't have to have the bulgy eye and exposed teeth. Like I said with the Heath's Joker, you can change the exterior if the core of the character is still true. I was hoping for more of a Darkman look for Two-face, with some sort of cracked and damaged lips on the left side and a reddish brown sort of burnon the face. I loved thfact that there was no hair on that side, reminded me of The Long Halloween and Dark Victory.

Anyway, those are the bigger issues, likes and dislikes, of the Dark Knight where character was concerned.





Oh, and long live Keaton's whispery Batman voice!

[Azrael]

Sorry to revive an old thread, I just watched it again recently.

I think the most ridiculous and cliched moment is by far the "Big Convict throws the detonator out of the window". I'm not only talking about its plausibility, but it feels so forced and contrived that I almost cringe, like taken away from a different (dumb) movie by Jerry Bruckheimer that features only cliched and propagandistic "inspiring" hero moments. I loved the movie, but this scene makes me cringe. It' obvious what they wanted to "say", but...

[Batnar]

I just watched it again too. 
It's an ok film, no doubt.  I can watch this anytime over Batman Forever and B&R. But I personally find that it still lacks the mysterious and fantastical seduction I embraced with 89 and Returns. (more so with 89).

Here's what I don't like about the film and I will be as fair as possible.

First, the music. I miss Elfman's original BATMAN score. The music found in BB and TDK is too repetitive. There's no variations in instruments. And it's easy to reproduce on a keyboard. *CHUNG CHUNG chung.... CHUNG CHUNG chung...* etc.  It's always tense. And while some people may think that's cool, I think some balance and variation would have been good. I mean, when you have the entire film going *CHUNG CHUNG chung... CHUNG CHUNG chung...* like some horror film, it gets old pretty fast.

Second.. the replacement actress for the character Rachel.
I was left wondering if Katie Holme's face aged 10 years since Batman Begins.
While I appreciate Nolan trying to make a seamless transition with a different actress, I never supported having using a somewhat look a like stand in. Because it gets awkward. And She looked more like Rachel's mother instead.


One minor thing that I felt was unnecessary, was the inclusion of Scarecrow at the beginning in this film. Did anyone find it pointless besides me?

I'm also not as crazy about Bruce Wayne in these series. I know people say he fits the comic mold better, but I kinda miss Michael Keaton's more conflicting and odd mannerisms rather than the conceited rich boy deal to cover up his true identity.

Actually, I think thats why I personally liked Batman Begins more than TDK. Bruce was more conflicted and in some kind of agony in that film that I was captivated by.

But you know whats funny... I would have been able to forgive all the above if they'd given Christian Bale a better mask/cowl!! lol. Seriously.

I truly hate the Begins and TDK costumes. They're so ugly in my eyes. Like a potato head. Or Catman. SO dorky looking. The stuff they used in Batman and Batman Returns are still the best cowls made in my opinion. After that, they got all flashy and retarded like toys (for toys actually hehe).

And if I'm going to be forced to pick suits and masks between BB and TDK, I'd rather they have stuck with BB to be honest. I just cant stand how the mask makes Bale look. He's got a great chissled jaw and the cowl only eliminates that in my humble opinion.

They need to give him longer ears and take away that potato head look. Give him his panther neck back. Screw him being able to turn his neck. The "bat turn" is so much more intimidating in my opinion.

So there you have it. lol.

In honesty, a good film to watch. But I was never infected by the hype.
It's just not iconic enough like 1989.


Oh, as for Heath's Joker...  Jack is still the best. Seriously.
I truly believe Batman 1989 is still to this day, the definitive BATMAN!

[The Dark Knight]

But I personally find that it still lacks the mysterious and fantastical seduction I embraced with 89 and Returns. (more so with 89).

Exactly. My main reason why I prefer Burton's Batman films.

[Dark Knight Detective]

First, the music. I miss Elfman's original BATMAN score. The music found in BB and TDK is too repetitive. There's no variations in instruments. And it's easy to reproduce on a keyboard. *CHUNG CHUNG chung.... CHUNG CHUNG chung...* etc.  It's always tense. And while some people may think that's cool, I think some balance and variation would have been good. I mean, when you have the entire film going *CHUNG CHUNG chung... CHUNG CHUNG chung...* like some horror film, it gets old pretty fast.

I must agree. It sort of reminds me of the music in thriller films like Heat, Speed, Inside Man, etc.

Second.. the replacement actress for the character Rachel.
I was left wondering if Katie Holme's face aged 10 years since Batman Begins.
While I appreciate Nolan trying to make a seamless transition with a different actress, I never supported having using a somewhat look a like stand in. Because it gets awkward. And She looked more like Rachel's mother instead.

Actually, Maggie's casting is one of the reasons why TDK is such a huge improvement over Begins IMO. She added humanity to the character & really seemed like she was acting, as opposed to Katie Holmes who seemed out of place with her best robot impression.

One minor thing that I felt was unnecessary, was the inclusion of Scarecrow at the beginning in this film. Did anyone find it pointless besides me?

Yes, it was rather pointless, esp. with, "I'm not wearing hockey pads!" But then again, at least we get to see how Scarecrow gets thrown back in Arkham.

I'm also not as crazy about Bruce Wayne in these series. I know people say he fits the comic mold better, but I kinda miss Michael Keaton's more conflicting and odd mannerisms rather than the conceited rich boy deal to cover up his true identity.

I sort of hate Bruce's characterization in Begins. It bothered me when he held a firearm to Gordon's (even though Batman carried a gun originally, & I'm not crazy about it) & wandered around the world aimlessly. The moment he sees his parents murdered, he should absolutely hate guns, become determined to become the best he could be, & declare his war on crime. To me, that's Bruce Wayne. And yes, I don't really find him to be really intimidating as Batman. He speaks too much, & with that growly voice. Batman should speak in a voice that's frightening, yet understandable, & should say as little as possible (there are exceptions, though). To me, that's Batman.

But TDK showed that Bruce Wayne/Batman could possibly fit my characterization of him in the upcoming film(s). , but there are some things I would like to add in for him. As Bruce Wayne, just give him a subtle demeanor & a brooding manner (and less of a playboyish behavior),  & we've struck something. As Batman, just make him a little more frightening, give him a more traditional batsuit, & give him an intimidating yet comprehensible voice, & there we have it.

[Batmoney]

I agree with Batnar about the TDK suit, the Begins suit I think is pretty good. On both though, I agree that the lower part of the mask needs a little more exposure, not a little hole to talk through like a ski-mask.

I really am not a fan of the TDK suit. It has its moments where it looks pretty badass, but overall it looks simply stupid most of the time in my opinion. The head is so bulbous, I can definitely see the Potato Head reference for the TDK suit.

In the interrogation scene where Batman goes to lock the door with a chair, it looks like he is about to topple over as he goes up to the door because his head is so big.

[Dark Knight Detective]

In the interrogation scene where Batman goes to lock the door with a chair, it looks like he is about to topple over as he goes up to the door because his head is so big.

LOL

Yeah, the batsuit in TDK does look ridiculous, & rather unrealistic for Batman. He needs to wear a suit that strikes fear into the hearts of criminals, not make them think he's Robocop's brother!

[johnnygobbs]

I can't really agree with many of the criticisms aimed at Nolan's films (although I do think that TDK is vastly superior to the slightly over-rated Batman Begins).

The only thing I really hate about Nolan's films are some of the fans or so-called 'Nolanites' (we know who they are) who use their love of these films as justification for bashing Burton's Batman films.  I think both series are great, although I probably favour of Burton's films more for two reasons; one, that I grew up with them and two, that I generally prefer a more imaginative, creative take to genre movies than a solidly 'realitic' approach.

Nevertheless, as I say I really like TDK and Begins.  I just wish some of the 'Nolanites' could open their minds a little and show a similar appreciation for Batman and Returns.  After all, Nolan himself has given his own thumbs up to Burton's movies.

[Batnar]

Well Nolan is not the enemy here. In fact, no one is. But you're absolutely right Johnnygobbs. Some fans have taken this whole Nolan vs Burton thing, a bit too far.

I also agree with a previous post that the hype is dissipating and some of those Tim Burton nay sayers are beginning to realize how truly wonderful the original films were/are.

This isn't a war of who's better than who, but it is also hard not to compare the level of batmania each film produces. Though TDK made a ton of money, I don't see it as iconic as Tim's first Batman where you saw the bat symbol everywhere you went. Including your breakfast cereal!

But then again, I do respect a film for what it is. 

I wish they hired Reevz to do the sculpts for the cowls. Reevz can make some pretty mean looking Batman cowls, snarls and everything heh.