The Killing Joke

[The Dark Knight]

The Joker is what we all could be. We either use our pain for good - to help others like Batman. Or we use our pain for evil. Giving the world the finger and doing as we please like The Joker. Either way, they are two extreme viewpoints. Two very different moods. Ultimately, we make a choice as to how we present ourself to the world. The Joker's speech to Vicki in B89 about crying inside is true, in my opinion.

The guy is full of anger and sorrow, but presents a man of fun and games. That's why he's dangerous. The inherent attribute ebbing under the surface is one of extreme jealousy and irritation. The guy who yells at Brian Douglas in TDK is the real deal. I don't think he's necessarily crazy...but mad.

[The Laughing Fish]

It seems the film will include a Batgirl prologue as backstory.

Source: https://www.yahoo.com/movies/batgirl-gets-a-prologue-in-the-upcoming-batman-151959433.html

[Catwoman]

I'm mixed on this. Obviously they had to fill time and I can't think of any better way than setting up Barbara to be more than just a victim but that's going to give it a devastating kind of impact that I didn't really have when I first read it (I had known for years she gets paralyzed and Joker does it and yadda yadda so it didn't have that effect). I'm excited and dreading it at the same time.

[The Dark Knight]

If the film had to be expanded to make the runtime sufficient, they picked the right way to do it.

[Dagenspear]

A few stories presented the flashbacks from TKJ as fact. For example, in 'Wildcard!' (Batman Vol 1 #450, July 1990) the Joker's shown reminiscing about his fateful immersion at Ace Chemicals, and his recollections perfectly match those depicted in Moore's book. He's even shown to have kept the original red hood that he wore when he leaped into the vat, proving the Red Hood origin was more than just a misremembered delusion.

Meanwhile the story about the Joker's wife being killed is confirmed during Hush Returns (2004), where the Riddler presents himself as a third-party witness to the event. The Joker himself verifies it in Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #52 (June 2004).

But then DC started to move away from the idea of The Killing Joke flashbacks being canon. In 'The Origin of the Joker' (Countdown #31, September 2007) he presents the reader with three different versions of his back story. This foreshadows a recent revelation in Justice League Vol 2 #50, where the Mobius Chair responded to Batman's question about the Joker's true name by saying, "There are three." Though no one really knows what that means at this point. Three names? Three origins? Three personalities?

Not really a fact. Just a showcase that he either was the Red Hood or has the red hood itself with him. Recollections of a potential memory he's already remembered isn't really confirmation either. I can say that I find the dead wife and him being so scared of Batman that he jumps in the chemicals and it was all just a big misunderstanding idea kinda blah. It seems kinda lame and a cliche way to try and take a character and make them generic and falsely tragic. I've never seen real depth there. I don't know why it's viewed as highly as it is. I personally prefer The Man Behind The Red Hood! version or in a way the Burton movie version. Or maybe even a mishmash of all 3 would work. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[Silver Nemesis]

Not really a fact. Just a showcase that he either was the Red Hood or has the red hood itself with him. Recollections of a potential memory he's already remembered isn't really confirmation either.

The two stories I cited predicate on the events of The Killing Joker being factual. It's not simply a matter of Joker's recollections. Both stories offer evidence to corroborate the flashbacks depicted in TKJ. In Batman Vol 1 #450 the Joker is shown degenerating into a pre-maddened state of emotional and psychological vulnerability following his near death experience at the end of A Death in the Family (1989). He mentally relives the traumatic events surrounding his immersion at Ace Chemicals and is shown to have kept the Red Hood from that fateful night.

In the Post-Crisis canon the Red Hood storyline was connected with TKJ. And the version of events depicted in Batman #450 is clearly based on Moore and Bolland's story, as evidenced by the presence of two additional criminals in the chemical plant sequence and the scene where the Joker emerges from the river following his escape from the plant. Both of these elements were introduced in TKJ and neither were present in the Pre-Crisis version of his origin, as depicted in 'The Man Behind the Red Hood!' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #168, February 1951). So while Batman #450 may not reference the back story about the Joker's pregnant wife, it does present the TKJ chemical plant sequence as canon. And it offers the physical evidence of the Red Hood costume to substantiate the reality of these events.

Meanwhile the rest of the origin from TKJ has been treated as canon in other issues. In Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #50 (April 2004) the Joker is shown looking through a photo album containing pictures of his younger self and his wife Jeannie.

In Batman: Gotham Knights Vol 1 #54 (August 2004) the Joker recaps the flashback events from TKJ, this time giving us a few extra details: his real name is Jack and the incident at Ace Chemicals occurred precisely 12 years prior to the events of Hush Returns. The Riddler confirms witnessing certain events from this back story, including the murder of Jeannie by a corrupt police office named Oliver Hammet, the Joker appearing at the scene of the murder fresh from his rebirth at Ace Chemicals, and the Joker attending Jeannie's funeral.

I'm not suggesting the TKJ back story involving Jeanie and the Red Hood origin was ever 100% fact (although it was clearly treated as such in these particular stories). I'm just presenting these examples to illustrate how many fans, and indeed comic creators, considered it canon prior to DC reemphasising the "multiple choice" angle around the time The Dark Knight was in production. A further example can be found in DC's Who's Who: Update '88 Vol 1 #2 (September 1988), which presents the following origin story for the Joker (the previous edition had described the Golden Age origin from 1951):

Once again, the possibility of the Joker remembering it wrong is acknowledged, but the probable canonicity of his recollections is nevertheless asserted. And that was the prevalent attitude amongst comic fans for almost twenty years.

[The Dark Knight]

Great post. Silver knows his comics. 

[Travesty]

I just got done watching it. The animation was actually much better than what the previews made it out to be. The first third is a Batgirl prologue, and I don't think it really added much to the story, other than fill in some time. It wasn't a bad story, but it didn't really feel significant to the main story of TKJ. I don't really know what they were thinking with this one, as its kinda bland, and doesn't really add anything? But after that, it's basically TKJ from the comics, although, some of the dialogue is changed, and the pacing seems a bit different to me. And I think they botched the very ending, but I'll be interested in what you guys think of it when you finally see it.

Definitely worth a watch, but not my favorite DC animated movie. If I had to rate it, I would probably give it a 7.5/10. Not bad, but not great.

[Silver Nemesis]

I'm hearing a lot of negative buzz about this film. It's getting polarising reviews and fan reaction seems to range from mildly indifferent to toxic. A lot of the negativity relates to the opening act of the movie, and especially the depiction of Barbara Gordon. Things got a bit ugly at the Comic-Con panel when fans voiced their displeasure:

As such, it should have come as no surprise to DC Comics that some people would voice concerns at The Killing Joke panel at this year's Comic-Con. The panel, for the most part, started without a hitch. Voice actors Tara Strong and Kevin Conroy talked about reprising their roles of Batgirl and Batman for the film. Mark Hamill, one of the most iconic Jokers ever onscreen, even phoned in to say how excited he was to be returning to the role.

It was during the Q&A that things got dicey. A Joker cosplayer asked the writers why they would downplay Barbara Gordon, such a strong female character, and make her story more about the men in her life. According to Bleeding Cool reporter Jeremy Konrad, the writers insisted she was still a strong female character. Konrad, who'd already seen the film and didn't agree, himself sarcastically shouted, "Yeah, by using sex and then pining for Bruce."

That's when co-screenwriter Brian Azzarello seemed to put it all out there. "Wanna say that again? Pussy?" he asked.

A report by The Hollywood Reporter adds some context to the heated discussion:

"I don't think she's pining over Bruce at all," said Azzarello. "She's pining over the violence."

Executive Bruce Timm acknowledged "it's complicated."

"I actually like that in that opening story both Batman and Batgirl make a series of mistakes and then it kind of escalates, because Batman kind of overreacts and then she overreacts to her overreaction," said Timm. That's a very human thing."

"There's clearly an unstated attraction between the two of the characters from the very beginning and I think it's there in the comics. If you go back and look at the Adam West show, its' there in the Adam West show," said Timm. "It's subtle, but to me it's always been there."

Azzarello has a reputation for being contrarian and cantankerous at times. It's entirely possible that he was reacting to the way the comment was made—shouted from the crowd by a writer who describes himself as frustrated with the film—and not just the content of the remark itself. But, whether he felt he was being heckled or not, his response is crummy. Even if Azzarello disagrees with fans' reaction or feels attacked, to be so dismissive sours the relationship that fans have with Batgirl, the filmmakers, and DC as a company. The creators can stand by their creative decisions, sure, but they don't have to be assholes about it.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-killing-joke-movie-is-a-disaster-right-down-to-its-1784176711

I never particularly liked The Killing Joke anyway and have always considered it overrated, so maybe I'll enjoy the film more due to my low expectations. I'll certainly pick up a copy and form my own opinion. But it looks like a lot of fans are unhappy with DC's latest animated effort. The IMDb rating is already down to a 7.2.

[Travesty]

I actually agree with Azzarelo on that. It sounds like the person who was asking them the question, was trying to make some ultra progressive statement about how they're probably shaming women. I know a lot of people are pointing fingers at him, but I think he's totally in the right on this. He stood up for himself over something he felt was stupid. I have no problem with it.