Debate: How many people did Burton's Batman really kill?

[The Laughing Fish]

I decided to take another listen to a podcast reviewing Batman Returns that I found a couple of months ago, and the host offers an argument that Batman's kill toll in the Burton films could have been exaggerated, and even claims there's inadequate evidence to show he even intended to murder anybody. Skip to 19:20 to listen to the host's arguments.

Source: http://twotruefreaks.com/media/podcasts/TrentusMagnusPunchesReality/mp3/BatmanReturns03.mp3
The points are:

• We don't really see anybody getting blown up when Batman controlled the Batmobile to blow up the Axis Chemicals factory, so there's a possible chance that he didn't kill anybody.
• It's suggested that he might have shot the Joker's henchmen with the Batwing during the parade scene, but it's not explicit, and not certain that the goon died.
• The big Joker goon in the cathedral was self-defense, since the goon was getting closer to killing Batman.
• The Joker was arguably killed by accident. Batman tried to stop him by using his grapple gun, and if Joker hadn't held onto that helicopter ladder then he might have dangled upside down instead and stayed there till the police arrived.
• The Red Triangle Gang flamebreather who was set alight by the Batmobile could have survived by rolling himself into the snow.
• The dynamite that Batman used against the strongman was arguably a dud, since its explosion was pretty weak.
• Penguin's demise was his own fault because he was the one who activated the remote control that lead to his fatal fall into the acid. The argument is if you can especially excuse Batman's lack of action against Ra's in BB, then you can do the same thing for Penguin in BR.

While I appreciate the host's arguments and even agree with most of the aforementioned points, I got to admit there are a few things I don't buy. For instance, it's true that the goons being blown up during the Axis Chemicals scene wasn't explicit, but I highly doubt anybody could survive such a huge explosion, especially when they were standing in front of the Batmobile at point blank range. To me, that's like arguing nobody else other than the fake Ra's al Ghul died in the temple explosion in BB. And personally, I was always under the impression that Batman did take down one of those Joker's goons in the Batwing.

While it's true that Batman didn't quite murder Joker, he still had the intention of doing so moments earlier. In any case, it doesn't bother me if Batman was seeking vengeance because the Joker at that point proved to be a deadly menace to society. But I do agree that the big Joker goon who Batman killed during the cathedral scene was done in self-defense.

As for BR, I'll give the host credit for arguing the possibility that the flamebreather might have survived, but I find it a little hard to believe that the Red Triangle Gang would arm themselves with a dud dynamite. It makes no sense to me, especially since they are pretty deadly in how they attack innocent people  e.g. setting a man on fire during their assault on Gotham Plaza at the start of the film. I'll give him props about the Penguin though.

One more thing: the host mentions there are some people out there who disapprove Burton for using the early Golden Age comics as a source for inspiration for his films since it's supposed to be thought of an "illegitimate" presentation of the character for some odd reason. His rebuttal is you should do the same thing for Nolan, who claimed to use the Golden Age comics as his inspiration for his Joker (although in my opinion, I see little to nothing in common with the Joker of that era and the one seen in TDK). As he says: there's no need for double standards.

Thoughts?

[Catwoman]

The only reason we didn't see anyone get blown up in the Axis building is because, well, they got blown up. Can't exactly have that in a PG-13 movie lol. I thought that was obvious to everyone and I guess it is to everyone but tis dude. Bless his heart.

I think I posted about the firebreather dude but I may have just dreamed that. But if I didn't, I would have said something like what you said, if he remembered what they teach us in school ("Stop! Drop! Roll!") he might have lived. I think he would have stayed away from breathing anymore fire though. And from campfires. And candles. And lighters. Yah. His whole life would have been turned 180 degrees on him lol.

I also would have said how funny it was that you see him breathing flames and then Batsy's like "Uh huh, amatuer" and spins the car around and BOOM. Love that Tim Burton humor

[Dagenspear]

I decided to take another listen to a podcast reviewing Batman Returns that I found a couple of months ago, and the host offers an argument that Batman's kill toll in the Burton films could have been exaggerated, and even claims there's inadequate evidence to show he even intended to murder anybody. Skip to 19:20 to listen to the host's arguments.

Source: http://twotruefreaks.com/media/podcasts/TrentusMagnusPunchesReality/mp3/BatmanReturns03.mp3
The points are:

• We don't really see anybody getting blown up when Batman controlled the Batmobile to blow up the Axis Chemicals factory, so there's a possible chance that he didn't kill anybody.
• It's suggested that he might have shot the Joker's henchmen with the Batwing during the parade scene, but it's not explicit, and not certain that the goon died.
• The big Joker goon in the cathedral was self-defense, since the goon was getting closer to killing Batman.
• The Joker was arguably killed by accident. Batman tried to stop him by using his grapple gun, and if Joker hadn't held onto that helicopter ladder then he might have dangled upside down instead and stayed there till the police arrived.
• The Red Triangle Gang flamebreather who was set alight by the Batmobile could have survived by rolling himself into the snow.
• The dynamite that Batman used against the strongman was arguably a dud, since its explosion was pretty weak.
• Penguin's demise was his own fault because he was the one who activated the remote control that lead to his fatal fall into the acid. The argument is if you can especially excuse Batman's lack of action against Ra's in BB, then you can do the same thing for Penguin in BR.

While I appreciate the host's arguments and even agree with most of the aforementioned points, I got to admit there are a few things I don't buy. For instance, it's true that the goons being blown up during the Axis Chemicals scene wasn't explicit, but I highly doubt anybody could survive such a huge explosion, especially when they were standing in front of the Batmobile at point blank range. To me, that's like arguing nobody else other than the fake Ra's al Ghul died in the temple explosion in BB. And personally, I was always under the impression that Batman did take down one of those Joker's goons in the Batwing.

While it's true that Batman didn't quite murder Joker, he still had the intention of doing so moments earlier. In any case, it doesn't bother me if Batman was seeking vengeance because the Joker at that point proved to be a deadly menace to society. But I do agree that the big Joker goon who Batman killed during the cathedral scene was done in self-defense.

As for BR, I'll give the host credit for arguing the possibility that the flamebreather might have survived, but I find it a little hard to believe that the Red Triangle Gang would arm themselves with a dud dynamite. It makes no sense to me, especially since they are pretty deadly in how they attack innocent people  e.g. setting a man on fire during their assault on Gotham Plaza at the start of the film. I'll give him props about the Penguin though.

One more thing: the host mentions there are some people out there who disapprove Burton for using the early Golden Age comics as a source for inspiration for his films since it's supposed to be thought of an "illegitimate" presentation of the character for some odd reason. His rebuttal is you should do the same thing for Nolan, who claimed to use the Golden Age comics as his inspiration for his Joker (although in my opinion, I see little to nothing in common with the Joker of that era and the one seen in TDK). As he says: there's no need for double standards.

Thoughts?

A superhero shouldn't be a serial murderer.

I think all the people escaped Axis chemicals.

I never thought a goon died.

That would still be killing. But, I think he just broke every bone in his body and was in coma. The guy was pretty tough.

I basically agree here.

Yes.

Maybe not a dud, but certainly not the capacity to blow a person up it seems. The guy probably has severe burns.

Batman couldn't have known Penguin would fall through that window and into that toxic waste. I don't believe that killed him by the way.

[Catwoman]

Batman couldn't have known Penguin would fall through that window and into that toxic waste. I don't believe that killed him by the way.

Then what did? lol

[Dagenspear]

Batman couldn't have known Penguin would fall through that window and into that toxic waste. I don't believe that killed him by the way.

Then what did? lol

I think he climbed out of the water, the toxic waste cleaned out of his system, with the clearest head he's ever had,  gave up his ridiculous kidnapping schemes and became a mob boss instead.

[Catwoman]

He had a pretty convincing death scene that wasn't really a death scene then. lol

"He looked pretty dead to me."

[Dagenspear]

He had a pretty convincing death scene that wasn't really a death scene then. lol

"He looked pretty dead to me."

He was nearly dead. The Penguins saved his life by shoving him into that water.

[Catwoman]

Guess we should agree to disagree lol

[The Laughing Fish]

He had a pretty convincing death scene that wasn't really a death scene then. lol

"He looked pretty dead to me."

He was nearly dead. The Penguins saved his life by shoving him into that water.

That is the funniest post that I have ever seen on this forum.

[Dagenspear]

He had a pretty convincing death scene that wasn't really a death scene then. lol

"He looked pretty dead to me."

He was nearly dead. The Penguins saved his life by shoving him into that water.

That is the funniest post that I have ever seen on this forum.

I was kind of joking. But I also don't necessarily believe Penguin was killed. Not that it matters at this point in the discussion.