Interesting

[Joker81]

This  was on IMDB. Its is interesting. I do share a lot of his points.

I found the film to be entertaining but I had major problems with the script, which I felt was poor and seriously contrived. Too many things happen at exactly the right moment to move the plot along instead of just flowing naturally.

The main problem for me is this: Christopher Nolan has constantly emphasized that his Batman vision is based on realism; as such, the film should adhere to the rules of the universe it creates, and this doesn?t happen in The Dark Knight.

It?s not a case of just sitting back and being entertained by a comic book movie; The Dark Knight is - for all intents and purposes ? set in reality, but it completely ignores the rules that it sets itself. As a result, the impact of the film is severely dampened in my view.

Using the excuse that ?all movies have flaws so stop over-analysing? is major cop-out. The flaws in TDK took me out of the movie and could not be ignored. In fact, I would go so far as to say the script is an insult to the intelligence at some points, yet people are calling for it to win an Oscar!

And the following should be read in light of the fact that I am a huge Chris Nolan fan. I loved Batman Begins and Memento is a modern day masterpiece. Insomnia and The Prestige are also superb movies. In my view, The Dark Knight is Nolan?s worst movie.

Here are the problems I had with the film:

1. The bank raid

The school bus just happens to break through the wall at the exact moment that the last remaining bank robber is holding a gun on the Joker. How is everything so perfectly choreographed that the robber ends up in the exact spot he needs to be to get hit by the bus? Not realistic at all.

Then, the school bus drives out of the bank at the exact right moment to join up with a huge procession of other school buses! And there just happens to be a space for the bus to enter. Again, completely unrealistic. For this to happen, everything from the beginning to the end of the raid would have to happen with split-second precision and timing with no room for error.

Impossible, as there are too many variables at play. For example, the gunshot-toting bank manager. That was unforeseen and put a crimp in their plan. Yet despite this, everything *still* runs like clockwork.

I also disliked the way the Bank robbers explained the plot as they set up the raid, talking about who gets a cut and about the Joker. Was this necessary? This kind of obvious explanation is so patronizing. The whole sequence would have been more effective without any of the blatant expository dialogue.

This kind of ?hey folks, this is what?s happening!? dialogue plagues the whole film. Another prime example is when Ramirez tells Gordon about the Joker card with three sets of DNA. Gordon responds: ?The Joker is trying to tell us who he?s targeting?/

Well, no *beep* That is OBVIOUS. But because we as audience members are so stupid, we apparently need a line of dialogue to ram it home.

2. Scarecrow scene

Batman jumps from the top level of the parking structure and lands on an escaping SUV. What happens? The SUV is crushed AND the impact of Batman makes it stop. GIVE ME A BREAK! Batman is only a mere mortal. He would have bounced off the car and wouldn?t have even made a dent in the roof.

Yes it?s a cool scene but it really bugs me because it suggests that Batman has super-powers, which he doesn?t. Nolan seems to pick and choose between when Batman is just a man and when he has extraordinary strength. He should remain consistent and not devalue the character just for the sake of a cheap money shot.

3. Marone court scene - how did a gun get in the courtroom ***Retracted: Explanations given***

4. The Hong Kong section

Completely overblown and overwritten. There are simpler ways to grab Lau and bring him back to the US. Why grab him in his office building?! Does he live there? I think not. Batman could nabbed Lau *far easier* at his residence and with less personal risk and expensive planning.

But of course, the Nolan?s have to come up with something spectacular and wildly unbelievable for the sake of spectacle.

5. The Rachel/Dent/Wayne triangle.

I hated the fact that Rachel was in a serious relationship with Dent yet she still kissed Wayne on the balcony at that party. This made me lose respect for her character because she is basically cheating on Dent. Rachel is supposed to be this strong, moral woman with inalienable principles, yet she cheats on someone she clearly loves.

The triangle didn?t need to be written this way; it would have been better if Bruce went in for the kiss and Rachel pulled back. In my view, the Nolans destroyed the integrity of the Rachel Dawes character.

6. Commissioner Loeb?s death.

Right at the moment Gordon arrives with news of the threat, Loeb decides to have drink, and dies right at the moment Gordon is figuring out where the DNA could have come from.

Okay, it?s possible but it?s just so contrived! Loeb obviously knew of the threat before Gordon got there because there were cops all over the place. So why not have a drink before that? Well, he has to die when Gordon is there for dramatic effect, so the writers contrive that to happen.

And of course, Loeb and the judge die at exactly the same time! Please?

7. Bruce?s party

How does Bruce know of the triple threat to Dent/Loeb and the judge? There is no way he can know! Gordon would not call him with the news as he has no connection to Wayne. If Gordon was going to call anyone, he would call Dent on his cell-phone to let him know, would he not? Dent has to have one, surely?! Batman is set in the cell phone age so the idea that Dent doesn?t have one is ridiculous.

Also, Bruce was at the party with everyone else, so the chances of his listening to a police radio are slim at best. Besides, what would prompt him to be listening to police radio broadcasts in the middle of a party?

Bottom line: There is no way that Bruce could have known, yet somehow he does know. And on top of this, he manages to get to Dent and hide him seconds before the Joker appears. How convenient!

This is really shoddy writing and anyone with an ounce of objectivity will agree.

8. Bruce?s superhero strength.

*Retracted. Perhaps the gun was just dismantled instead of broken up.

9. The Joker crashing Bruce?s party.

The Joker?s mission is to find Harvey Dent. Well, he?s not that hard to find! Earlier in the film, he?s been in public many times. So why didn?t the Joker just nab him outside the courthouse or on the street or at home? Why wait till he?s at a party in Bruce Wayne?s penthouse *after* announcing to the world that Dent is a target?

Of course, the whole thing is horribly contrived so that the Joker can throw Rachel off the roof. This could have been written in a far more realistic way.

10. Rachel and Batman falling off the roof.

I can just about buy the fact that the fall was broken by Batman?s wings, but come on! Not even a scratch on Rachel? Ever so slightly beyond the realms of possibility I feel.

11. Fingerprints on the bullet sequence.

It was great to see Batman in Detective mode but this entire sequence was convoluted in the extreme. The fingerprint on the bullet led Batman to a room about the funeral procession, which was actually a decoy to hide the fact that the Joker was in the firing squad?!

It?s so badly written it?s unbelievable, and it doesn?t make sense. Furthermore, Bruce arrives in the room and finds those men tied up at the exact moment the shooting is going to take place. Again, horribly contrived.

12. Commissioner Loeb?s funeral.

We?re expected to believe that with hundreds of Cops around and ridiculously tight security that the Joker managed to worm his way into the Police honour guard?! Didn?t anyone notice the guy with the huge scars on his face?

This scene is ridiculous and unbelievable. It?s not beyond the realm of possibility, but with everyone *expecting* some kind of assassination attack and the Cops on alert, it?s just laughable that this could take place.

13. Gordon?s faked death.

This plot development really is an insult to the intelligence. Why was it necessary for Gordon to fake his death? The Joker already thought he was dead, so there was no way that he knew of Gordon?s plan to capture him. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Also, why would you put your family through the worst trauma imaginable when they were not even at risk?! Gordon says he faked his death because his family was at risk but this is utter nonsense. Why? Because the Joker thinks Gordon is dead. If he?s dead, he?s not a threat ergo his family is not at risk.

Even if Gordon thought his family *could* be at risk, why not just get them out of the city and the state and into protective custody? Surely this is better than making them think he was dead?

This is disappointingly lazy writing and really undermines the integrity of the story in my view. Look at it from Gordon?s point of view: Everyone already thinks he?s dead as he was shot down in public. As a result he can easily maneuver without attracting attention.

14. Revealing the true identity of Batman.

The midsection of the film with the Joker pursuing Dent in the SWAT van thinking he?s the real Batman is really weak from a story point of view.

First of all, why would the Joker purse Dent in a completely impractical and hard to maneuver super-truck?! Yes, it makes for a great action sequence but it?s a stupid choice of vehicle.

And can someone please explain exactly how a multi-tonne truck flips over so easily after snagging on some metal wire?!

It?s a great action set-piece but once again it?s let down by bad writing in my view.

And where exactly did Gordon come from? It?s like he just popped up from a hole in the ground. Batman rounds the Joker and crashes the bat-bike and there?s no one else around. The joker approaches Batman then all of a sudden Gordon?s is there?! Ridiculous.

15. Did Dent know about Gordon?s plan?
***Retracted: Explanations given***

16. The Joker?s escape.

The Joker is Gotham?s most notorious and wanted criminal, yet they leave him *uncuffed* and guarded by a single Cop?! And of course, the Cop just happens to have a suspect temperament, which the Joker manipulates.

If the Joker is in a locked room, why would there need to be a Cop inside the room with him?! Also, why was there no one stationed outside guarding the room? We can surmise that there wasn?t anyone guarding because if there was a fight going on, surely the guard would have heard it from outside?

Again, everything happens at exactly the right time. The guy with the bomb in his stomach starts having convulsions just as the Joker escapes from the cell and asks for his phone.

All this is dependant upon having a single cop guarding the joker inside the room who loses his cool, allowing the Joker a chance to escape. Laughably contrived.

And of course, the guy with a bomb in his stomach just happens to be captured and in jail at the exact time the Joker needs him.

17. The idea that the Joker ?planned to be caught?.

After Rachel dies, Gordon is angry at himself and says ?he wanted us to lock him up in the MCU?. So, let me get this straight: the massive chase scene through Gotham which culminated in Gordon capturing the Joker was really part of the Joker?s grand scheme as he ?planned? to get caught?!

Can anyone else see how ridiculous the script is?! So many things are illogical or not thought out well enough that it?s actually quite amazing.

18. Reese revealing the true identity of Batman.

Now this plot development is just insultingly bad. So, Reese goes on TV and says he?ll reveal the truth about Batman. Meanwhile, the scene is intercut with the Joker in a warehouse burning his half of the mob?s cash.

Then, *in the very next scene*, the Joker is calling into the TV show and threatening to blow up a hospital if someone doesn?t kill Reese!

How does the Joker go from burning money in a warehouse, to finding a TV, watching the show then calling up with his hospital threat in a matter of seconds?!

It is IMPOSSIBLE, yet we are expected to just swallow the writers think we?re idiots who would never question the story.

So, if the Joker decides to blow up a hospital in response to Reese?s TV ploy, how does he and his mob manager to rig the place with gas canisters and explosives *in broad daylight* without being seen?

Come on! This is beyond ridiculous. And it?s not about suspension of disbelief, it?s about not treating your audience like morons. There is *no way* on earth that in this day and age of heightened security that an entire hospital could be rigged to blow in broad daylight and no one saw a thing!

And the entire building was pulverized ? imagine the amount of explosives and petrol canisters needed to do that kind of damage.

And again, what?s going on with the timeline? The Joker is burning money; somehow finds a TV to watch; calls in and threatens Reese; wires a hospital and visits Dent all in the space of the same day and seemingly within a few hours?

Unbelievably poor writing.

One other thing ? the Joker has been trying to unmask Batman for the entire film, so why would he object to Reese going public with Batman?s identity? Wouldn?t the joker welcome this?! God, it?s amazing how senseless the screenplay is.

19. Sal Maroni?s confession.

After Gordon visit Dent, Maroni just happens to be in the hospital and just happens to have an attack of conscience and tells Gordon where to find the Joker?! It?s so pathetic and contrived I can?t even believe it!

20. Harvey Dent?s turn to the dark side.

For a start, the whole Dent story should have been saved for Part 3 instead of just being crammed into TDK. There wasn?t enough time to develop his fall into evil; it all happens in about 5 minutes

For 90 minutes, Dent is portrayed as this morally upstanding man of principle, yet all it takes for him to become evil and almost turn into a child-murderer is the death of his girlfriend and facial disfigurement Granted, such horrible things would have an impact on him, but child murder?! Give me a break.

The rushed nature of Dent?s descent to the dark side cheapened his character and turned him into a caricature. I thought the whole point of Harvey Dent was that his psyche fractured into two distinct beings, yet none of this was illustrated in TDK.

21. Batman?s sonar scheme.

Lucius Fox says something along the lines of ?You took my sonar concept and applied it to every phone in the city?. Someone explain to me how this is possible! Given the sonar technology has to be embedded in the phone itself (as we saw when Fox was in Hong Kong and left his sonar phone at security), are we expected to believe that Batman has the technology manually implanted into *every cell-phone in the city? ? a city which, incidentally, has 30 million inhabitants, according to Fox.

If it wasn?t manual, then how is this mass cell-phone scheme to be explained? Wireless technology?! I can?t get over how appallingly bad the script is! Once again, it?s a case of the writers coming up with something that sounds cool but not explaining it at all and expecting us to just accept it without question.

This sort of thing just takes me out of the movie. I don?t just go to the movies and sit there like a moron and not think about what I?m watching, but it seems like many people just did exactly that, which probably explains how a film with such an atrocious script is considered by many to be one of the best films ever made!

22. The ferry face-off.

Once again, another example of ridiculous and contrived writing. When exactly did the Joker have time to rig two ferries with 100 barrels of fuel?! We know its 100 someone on one of the ferries says so.

And how could 200 barrels of fuel be loaded onto these ferries without anyone noticing?! The Ferry plan only came about at the last minute so it?s not like it was along-standing plan giving the joker plenty of time.

The whole idea is completely laughable and unrealistic, with no concern for the logistics of how something like that would be set up. Once again, for the sake of a ?cool? scene, the writers threw logic out of the window.

23. Batman?s sonar vision.

When batman faces the Joker, his sonar vision momentarily fails and this causes him to lose his bearings, allowing the Joker to attack.

Why?!

Earlier on in the sequences, Batman switches between soar vision and normal vision. When the sonar fails, why doesn?t he just use his own vision?! Of course, we need a reason for the Joker to overpower batman, so the writers use the failing sonar vision as plot device to allow that to happen.

It?s ridiculous and once again it does not make sense! The writers are again treating the audience like morons, hoping we?ll be too wrapped up in ridiculously convoluted multi-level action to notice.

24. The Joker overpowering Batman.

After Batman?s sonar vision fails, the Joker somehow beats the crap out of Batman and manages to hold him down with a steel bar. Given the fact that Batman has been portrayed as almost superhuman for the preceding two hours (including easily subduing the Joker during interrogation), how is it possible that all of a sudden the Joker is stronger.

It?s so stupid I think my head is going to explode.

There are lots more minor things that compound the stupidity of the script, but I?ll leave those out for now.

I?d be very interested to how those who love TDK and rate it 10 out 10 justify the things I?ve highlighted above.

It?s not a case of nit-picking. The script is simply rubbish and treats the audience like a bunch of morons. I find it embarrassing that people think a film with a script this bad is the best film ever made! It?s laughable that people who don?t think about the film properly have elevated it to number 1 in the IMDB top 250.

I don't begrudge people their love affairs with TDK - if you love it, then good for you, but the things I've highlighted are serious story flaws that cannot be glossed over just because Heath Ledger put in a good performance.

Yes, it?s entertaining but it?s nowhere close to the best film of all time.

And Superman is still the best superhero movie of all time.

[BatmAngelus]

You know, I liked this film a lot more than I expected, but this guy has interesting points that I hadn't thought about.  Thanks for sharing his post, Joker.

My comments-

he still kissed Wayne on the balcony at that party

Was it at the party?  I thought it was when she was hiding out at the Wayne apartment. 
Regardless, I didn't care for this side of the character either.

Gordon says he faked his death because his family was at risk but this is utter nonsense. Why? Because the Joker thinks Gordon is dead. If he?s dead, he?s not a threat ergo his family is not at risk.

...That's exactly why Gordon faked his death.  However, I didn't care for this plot point either.  I didn't buy for a second that Gordon was dead nor did I find his faked death necessary, other than to introduce the audience to his family.

And where exactly did Gordon come from? It?s like he just popped up from a hole in the ground. Batman rounds the Joker and crashes the bat-bike and there?s no one else around. The joker approaches Batman then all of a sudden Gordon?s is there?! Ridiculous.

Gordon was the one driving the SWAT truck that Dent was in.  He was in SWAT gear.  The driver's face is covered up and he never responds to the other SWAT member's questions, making it suspicious as to who's actually driving the truck?
That plus the fact that I never thought Gordon was dead and it became predictable to me who would be joining Batman in taking out the Joker at the end of the sequence. 

And I'm very surprised he didn't mention the very last scenes, since my major problem with the film, as much as I liked it, was the ending.  This, to me, was a much bigger problem than any of the things he pointed out.
Mind you, I thought it was unique to end it on a premise of a hero on the run.  And I understand entirely on Harvey's significance to the city.
But I see no justification in Gordon & Batman's decision.  No matter what, Harvey Dent is still dead.  The city will hurt for that loss no matter what.  Are people going to be hopeful now that their pure D.A. has died and the controversial, yet heroic vigilante is now out there killing people and has yet to be caught by the police?
Overall, I'm not convinced that lying to the people that there's a dead hero and a living threat is going to be any better for the city than telling the truth that there's a dead ex-hero/would-be threat and a living, albeit controversial hero.

[Joker81]

BatmAngelus, I agree with everything you say there. And I knew Gordan wasnt dead, you cant kill Gordan offf!!! And I knew also it was him driving the swat van! A lot of the 'twists' in this film you culd see coming a mile off.

The end to me is silly. Since Batman is so much for justice and wouldnt kill anyone, why take the fall for Dent? Surely that is covering up for Dents actions, no matter what he had done as a D.A. Surley this is denying the victims relatives the truth, the rite to truth. Its ridiculas. And a silly twist.

Also, Dent being dead, I am confused about this. Because I thought he was still alive? Because when he is laying on the ground you can clearly see him breathing!!!? When you watch it again look out for this.

Also, if it was a 'mastake' to kill the Joker in Batman 89, then surley its a mastake to kill Dent.

[Joker81]

Oh and he didnt kiss her on the balcanoy, he kissed her in his appartment.  She was a bit of a tart really lol

[Paul (ral)]

Actually, all those things bothered me when I saw TDK.

I spoke to my fiance about it and she didn't see any problem. She said Batman and the Joker had planned things really well.

That's why I have to watch it again. 


btw, I didn't mind the Gordon deception thing, obviously we all knew he wasn't dead and it was a ploy - but characters in the movie didn't.

[thecolorsblend]

And where exactly did Gordon come from? It?s like he just popped up from a hole in the ground. Batman rounds the Joker and crashes the bat-bike and there?s no one else around. The joker approaches Batman then all of a sudden Gordon?s is there?! Ridiculous.

I'm with the rest of you, I was under the impression he was driving the van carrying Harvey.

This kind of ?hey folks, this is what?s happening!? dialogue plagues the whole film. Another prime example is when Ramirez tells Gordon about the Joker card with three sets of DNA. Gordon responds: ?The Joker is trying to tell us who he?s targeting?

Well, no *beep* That is OBVIOUS. But because we as audience members are so stupid, we apparently need a line of dialogue to ram it home.

And this guy loved Begins? ? ? ?

[BurtonBatman]

First off, I'm in the camp that thinks TDK is really, really good, but not perfect.  I do think this guy's take, even though I respect and understand it, is a bit nitpicky.  Gladiator won Best Picture in 2000, and if you look at the gaffs page on IMBD it has several that I would'nt have noticed had this gaff page not pointed them out.

My issues: 

1.  Dialog from Rachel as she and Dent were waiting to be saved was not believable.  She didn't seem that invested to me.

2.  Gordon's son not looking at all surprised to see his father alive as Gordon visits him in his room.   Before the kid woke up, I thought Gordon was going to scare the crap out of him, but he was as calm as a cucumber.   

3.  The claw-like device Batman uses to bend the gun and claw on to the side of the Scarecrow's van.  For what other purpose does it serve other than to bend a gun and claw on to the van.  Seems like it was created just for that scene.


More of a point of confusion rather than a criticism, but I'm still not sure as to whether or not Batman and Dent planned to have Harvey take the fall as Batman so that they could catch the Joker.  Bruce Wayne destroying evidence in his new Batcave would say this was Just Harvey's idea and that Harvey had faith Batman would save him, but Rachel says something to the effect that Batman is using Harvey as bait?  Also, did Harvey know Gordon was alive all along or not?

[BatmAngelus]

Also, Dent being dead, I am confused about this. Because I thought he was still alive? Because when he is laying on the ground you can clearly see him breathing!!!? When you watch it again look out for this.

Also, if it was a 'mastake' to kill the Joker in Batman 89, then surley its a mastake to kill Dent.

Sorry, Joker81, but as far as I'm concerned Dent is dead.  It says in the script and the novelization and in an interview with screenwriter Jonah Nolan, the death of Dent is brought up.  If Dent was actually still alive, then Jonah would definitely have corrected him.  And I can't really see where else Gordon could be at the podium, besides a memorial service.
As for Dent breathing...I guess Eckhart just screwed up playing dead.   

obviously we all knew he wasn't dead and it was a ploy - but characters in the movie didn't.

I know they didn't, but I didn't see a point in them believing he was dead, either.  They captured Joker because Dent "confessed" to being Batman and they used that as bait.  They could have come up with that trap without having Gordon fake his death.

I'm still not sure as to whether or not Batman and Dent planned to have Harvey take the fall as Batman so that they could catch the Joker.  Bruce Wayne destroying evidence in his new Batcave would say this was Just Harvey's idea and that Harvey had faith Batman would save him, but Rachel says something to the effect that Batman is using Harvey as bait?

Based on Bruce's reaction, I'd say that Bruce did not plan for Harvey to take the fall.  He was planning to step up when Harvey said, "Arrest the Batman." but he stops in shock as Harvey says, "I am the Batman."  Rachel couldn't believe that Bruce "just stood there" and let Harvey take the fall or she misunderstood and thought that Bruce had planned with Harvey to do that.  I'd have to rewatch.

Also, did Harvey know Gordon was alive all along or not?

I think he had to have known.  From the way I saw it, Harvey and Gordon came up with the plan, behind Batman's back, that Harvey would confess to being Batman.  Gordon would drive the car accompanying Harvey en route to prison, where, surely, the Joker would strike (and kill their men, cause mayhem in traffic,  kill civilians, etc.).

[Paul (ral)]

Also, did Harvey know Gordon was alive all along or not?

No, Batman used Gordon's death to shake sense into Dent (talked about Gordon's death being in vain) when he was interrogating the fake cop.

Also Gordon opened the van door and Dent was surprised to see him saying "Gordon! You do like to play things close to the chest."

[BatmAngelus]

^ Hmm, I've gotta rewatch this movie...