The Projection Booth Podcast (featuring Sam Hamm, Daniel Waters, Mark Reinhart)

[johnnygobbs]

The Projection Booth

Episode 199: Batman Returns

Special Guests: Daniel Waters, Sam Hamm, Mark Reinhart
Guest Co-Host: Mark Gledhill

In this special year-end episode, we're looking at Batman, focusing especially on Tim Burton's Batman Returns. We're joined by Mark Gledhill of Comic Book Consideration to discuss The Bat (Michael Keaton), The Cat (Michelle Pfeiffer), and The Penguin (Danny DeVito).

Our special guests include screenwriters Sam Hamm (Batman, The Watchmen Never Cry Wolf, Monkeybone) and Daniel Waters (Batman Returns, Heathers, Vampire Academy) along with writer Mark Reinhart (The Batman Filmography).

Wow!  What a great end of year treat!

This is an essential podcast for anyone who is interested in the genesis of Batman 1989 and Batman Returns.

I'm only at the Sam Hamm part at the moment (Daniel Waters' interview comes later).

I look forward to discussing this with you guys. 

http://projection-booth.blogspot.co.uk/

[d_osborn]

Can't wait to listen!  MAN I've been wanting to get my hands on the Waters 12/90 first draft of RETURNS.  Hopefully there's some discussion of it on the podcast.

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

Oh dear. Mark Reinhart, the Batman "filmography" writer no less, can't seem to remember which Superman film Tom Mankiewicz worked on in this podcast. When I hear things like that it's hard to fully appreciate their critical viewpoint.  Bless him though, he speaks of his displeasure of certain matters as a grown up without resorting to childish bashing. So good for him even if he gets a little muddled here and there.

Yet again though here we have a person complaining about Batman's lack of screen time. Perhaps shockingly not in Batman Returns! No, he's talking about in the 1989 original...of course! lol I do have to ask myself again and again for a guy clearly loving Christian Bale's era if he even watched The Dark Knight Rises and the shocking number of Bat costume changes contained within.

Don't agree one bit with his opinion of Michael Keaton of course. But understand his dislike of the killings featured in Batman Returns on Batman's part. But the Nolan films to me at least aren't so innocent on that score either. Batman didn't seem to have any bother machine gunning Talia Al Ghul into a rather nasty truck drop. Or her father Ra's for that matter. In fact judging by the grin on his face he appears to take a devilish glee in leaving Ra's to die on the collapsing Wayne monorail as he glides away. Surely he would have known the impact might be a little life threatening. Still if it's to save Gotham City eh? And that's all what I see watching Batman Returns too. Batman being rather violent, incinerating fire breathers and the like, but all in a desperate means of protecting Gotham City by fighting fire with fire. I don't really see either case as a problem.

I think his saying the Burton Batman films have one foot in 66 tv show cartoon camp and another in Nolan seriousness is a little below the belt. That's obviously a modern examination that's only just been tossed in by overzealous critics recently. They certain weren't saying things like that about them back in the day.

[The Laughing Fish]

Don't agree one bit with his opinion of Michael Keaton of course. But understand his dislike of the killings featured in Batman Returns on Batman's part. But the Nolan films to me at least aren't so innocent on that score either. Batman didn't seem to have any bother machine gunning Talia Al Ghul into a rather nasty truck drop. Or her father Ra's for that matter. In fact judging by the grin on his face he appears to take a devilish glee in leaving Ra's to die on the collapsing Wayne monorail as he glides away. Surely he would have known the impact might be a little life threatening. Still if it's to save Gotham City eh?

Too bad that Batman didn't apply the same course of action against the Joker in TDK. He could've prevented a lot of chaos and death otherwise, which makes his refusal to off Joker even more pointless and reprehensible. Not to mention that I doubt Joker would go along with the Dent cover-up if he were still alive by the end of the movie.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I need to let it go. The damage has been done.

Anyway, I get the feeling that some people don't prefer Keaton because he comes across as an everyman rather than a millionaire playboy. But that's what makes him so compelling, in my opinion. He is the kind of guy who needs to transform into something otherworldly; the kind of guy you'd least expect to become something larger than life, as Burton put it. Someone who needs to wear the Batsuit, unlike a Rambo/Terminator-type action star. Also, I thought Bruce Wayne played as sort of a social outcast - one who makes public appearances but remains mysterious - fits his psychological profile very well.

The hosts have a strong dislike for Robert Wuhl a lot. If they hate Knox for being a smarmy, condescending character, I'd imagine they'd have a hard time watching Iron Man. 

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

Yes! Poor Robert Wuhl. I really don't have a problem with the guy myself. To me he is a beloved and entertaining character. However I have become aware he has something of a hateful reputation with some fans. I am unsure though if this is because of his smarmy, wise-ass character or if it actually has something to do with Whul as a person himself. From the sound of things it would seem to be the latter. Has he got some sort of unpopular history I am unaware of? Isn't he known for being a stand up comic?

He may not exactly be a Robin Williams type of respectability, but he does set up some splendid Williams moments rather hilariously in "Good Morning Vietnam". My only personal problem with him (besides that unfortunate cameo in that dreadful sludge of a movie called "The Bodyguard") is that he's not at all keen on the sixties Batman TV show lol And that's fine anyway, it just proves he knows his Batman.

I like my Gotham City to have variety with it's citizens. So it'd be pretty strange if everyone is a lovely, likable character. Knox is no asshole nor villain to me. He just has the kind of cool, wiseguy humor you'd expect from Bill Murray's Peter Venkman. Being a tad annoying is an interesting, brave and truthful quality to express in fictional characters than aiming to please. And the people he annoys are mostly bad guys anyway.

The less said about Tony Stark the better lol

[The Laughing Fish]

I'll give Alexander Knox credit for at least having a personality. If you had to choose a redundant supporting character in your Batman movie, would you choose people like Coleman Reese, Foley (Matthew Modine) or even Lucius Fox over Knox?

I wouldn't.

The less said about Tony Stark the better lol

He is indeed a douche, but a somewhat endearing one. That being said, I prefer Captain America. He's a lot more noble.

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

Well to give Robert Downey Jr some sliver of credit his humorous *ahem* take on Tony Stark has proven to be very popular with crowds at the movies. It would seem this approach has worked and I guess Marvel are happy with taking a creative risk that they consider more interesting and entertaining. And there are sometimes moments I do find myself chuckling along with him especially at the end of "The Avengers" when he tirelessly starts to celebrate their victory. But still, what we have is basically a rich snot enjoying the best of life. It's hard to really care for him. He seems in fact to regress back into who he was at the start of the first movie in the sequels. I thought he overcame all that, Scrooge style? At least with Bruce Wayne we know he is acting like a jerk.

I'm not as deep in Iron Man lore as I am Batman lore. But I don't seem to remember Tony Stark being all like that in the comics. Perhaps I have too much of Robert Hayes animated portrayal from the 1990's inside my head?

Although this Batman Returns podcast is quite long I'll give you a reason to keep listening: Daniel Waters taking the absolute piss, fearlessly and hilariously, out of Christopher Nolan! (posh British accent and all!). Marvelous stuff. I LOVE Daniel Waters. So cocky and arrogant in approach ("f*** what the fans say, f*** em all!" his mood continuously evokes lol) but a genuinely nice guy he still comes across as in this interview. I think writers such as he is what comic book films need right about now. Someone brave enough to take risks again and not be bullied into being told how to do it by fans, step by step, in the most formulaic and boring of ways. I like a bit of rule breaking and risk taking again. I've no idea if the story he tells about Nolan really happened but how upsetting and embarrassing for him? At least he got a touch of revenge. Though I'm pretty sure if Nolan had the brains to known that he was in the audience he'd have dummied up and called Batman Returns "a masterpiece of filmmaking *ahem*".

[johnnygobbs]

Tony Stark's arrogant, conceited attitude rubs me the wrong way too, but at least to his credit he's a hard-working (albeit also hard-living) super-genius.  Bruce Wayne, at least in terms of his apparent persona (not including Michael Keaton, or even Val Kilmer's, more introspective portrayal here) is simply a spoiled fun-loving rich boy who needs smarter men and woman than himself to guide him through life.

[The Laughing Fish]

I listened to the podcast a little bit more.

Waters confessed that he hated B89, and actually encouraged Burton not to make too many links between it and BR. Although he did convince Burton to mention Vicki Vale for continuity. 

This Daniel Waters comes across as a very odd fellow.

RE: Iron Man. Downey once explained that he preferred superheroes to stay a little bit of who they are instead of fully becoming boy scouts, which is why Tony Stark still keeps his wanky personality.

I'm not as deep in Iron Man lore as I am Batman lore. But I don't seem to remember Tony Stark being all like that in the comics. Perhaps I have too much of Robert Hayes animated portrayal from the 1990's inside my head?

I think you're right. Some comics I read that featured Iron Man depicted him as a bit of a dull personality when he's sober. But honestly, I'd rather watch Downey play Stark as a smarmy douchebag than see him fall apart over alcohol like in the Demon in a Bottle story arc.

Although this Batman Returns podcast is quite long I'll give you a reason to keep listening: Daniel Waters taking the absolute piss, fearlessly and hilariously, out of Christopher Nolan! (

I haven't gotten around to this part yet. Do you what time exactly does Waters bring this up during the podcast?

[The Laughing Fish]

A couple of more things I've heard about the Daniel Waters interview:

• He said that one of his drafts had Alexander Knox murdered by the Red Triangle Gang, and his body was tied up on the Batsignal. That's how much he detests the character.
• He credited Keaton for being smart enough to cancel out redundant dialogue that would've made Batman too talkative, and avoid the film feeling like "watching C-Span at times (Waters' reference to the Nolan films...despite he actually likes them  )".
• He had a bit of a dispute with Wesley Strick for certain things about the final script that he didn't care for i.e. pop culture references.
• I finally caught Waters mocking Nolan around 03:40:32. He claimed that Nolan spoke some praise for B89 after the advanced screening of TDKR but expressed some distaste for BR; much to Waters' annoyance. Once again, BR may definitely be imperfect, but at least I can take comfort that it doesn't end with Batman being a moron by taking the blame for crimes he didn't commit and tainting his own symbol in the process, or fake his death to run away with a thief and a murderer.
• Waters' best friend actually hates BR and describes it as "a good Batman for people who hate Batman". You can take a look at the second paragraph in the previous bullet point above to read what I think.