Vicki Vale

[The Laughing Fish]

I'm looking back at Bruce and Vicki's relationship, and I'm reminded by an argument that thecolorsblend made in another thread - that in the end, it was possible that Bruce deep down wasn't truly in love with Vicki, and felt it was easy to let her go.

The two may not have known each other that long, but we have to remember that (at least as far as we know) Bruce didn't have any intimate contact with anyone since he became Batman. And unbeknownst to Vicki, he tried to avoid her because of his secret life as Batman. He tries to explain his complicated life, but is unable to because he has never been able to confide with someone before, other than Alfred. Bruce's commitment to being Batman deprives him from having any real contact with other people. I guess Vicki understood this by the end of the film, and realized that their was no future in their relationship.

[thecolorsblend]

Thanks for the shout out! If you really want to bend spoons a little bit, you could argue that Vicki represents Bruce attempting to satisfy and normalize himself within the context of a normal, healthy relationship with a psychologically stable woman. It doesn't work out so well.

Selina, then, is Bruce attempting to satisfy and normalize himself within the context of an abnormal, unhealthy relationship with a psychologically unhinged woman. That doesn't work out too well either.

Thus in Batman Forever we see that women aren't his problem per sé. He's a f**ked up, mentally scarred individual and until he resolves those conflicts, he can never be happy no matter what choices he makes in life.

Julie Madison in B&R, then, is kind of going full circle in that she's clearly looking for a husband and has her sights set on Bruce... who, though no longer a messed up individual with serious vengeance issues, can't commit to marriage since in a way he's already married to Batman. It's a sacrifice he's willingly making as opposed to a loss he's helpless to prevent. He's motivated by different values and philosophies by the time of B&R such that "losing the girl" isn't a personal setback in the same way it was in any of the previous films.

But that's just me, I could be wrong.

[Edd Grayson]

Great analysis, Colors. Writers have made Bruce Wayne's relationships to play out in many ways, both in comics and in the four films we mention.

[The Laughing Fish]

I had a discussion with a Nolan fanboy about B89 the other week on another forum, and he criticised the film for making Joker too obsessed with Vicki Vale and not interested in Batman as a psychological counterpart, like TDK tried to do.

He even goes so far to say the Joker was in love with Vicki. But is he really? Now yes, while he was definitely fascinated by Vicki, I don't see him truly cherishing her considering she tries to kill her together with Batman by the end of the movie. After all, the Joker is a flippant lunatic who kills on a whim, as you can see when he disposes his own loyal sidekick Bob.

Sure, maybe you can suggest that he eventually lost interest in Vicki. But then again, since when did the Joker ever have any genuine affection for human life? He even drove his own girlfriend Alicia crazy and laughed it off. I guess in many ways, Nicholson's Joker was just as chaotic and random as TDK's Joker. What's puzzling is the fanboy even suggested that Nolan was taking a subtle dig at Burton's supposed misunderstanding of the Joker, because he thought the character in TDK had tricked the audience into thinking he was interested in Rachel Dawes before throwing her out of the penthouse. I don't know about anyone else here, but I never got the impression the Joker was ever interested in Rachel at all. Yes, he mentioned how beautiful she was during the penthouse scene, but it never sounded as if he was genuinely fascinated by her, so I wasn't surprised when he tries to kill her immediately after.

Of course, the same fanboy even suggested that Burton's films were "frivolous, anti-comic book movies that put style over substance and characters". This is despite the fact the Burton villains have way more character development than TDK's Joker and how they reflect Batman in some way. Never mind the fact the films not only had a strong influence for the beloved BTAS, but Nolan's first two films lifted scenes from B89 alone e.g. "I'm Batman", Joker saying "Come on!" to Batman driving in some sort of vehicle approaching towards him in the middle of the street.

Not bad for "frivolous, anti-comic book movies".

[johnnygobbs]

Rachel was 'beautiful' in The Dark Knight?!?

[Catwoman]

He even drove his own girlfriend Alicia crazy and laughed it off.

Life imitates art for most men, in this case.

Listening to Nolan fans trying to dismiss other versions is draining. The scary part is you get the sense they actually believe the bullsh*t they're spouting. I can get building up the version you enjoy the best, but the way they act so freaking militant over the ones they think are inferior (read: EVERY SINGLE VERSION FROM 1939 TO NOW THAT CHRISTOPHER NOLAN WASN'T INVOLVED WITH) and come up with all this off-the-wall stuff to try to run them down is just...ug. You want to grab them by their ears and give their head a good shake. Or just tell them to get a life. I usually try to avoid them at most cost because they're so, like, fanatical over it that it's not a fun discussion or debate with them. And liking those versions isn't enough. Heaven forbid you act like any version is better. I remember on the cesspool that was the IMDb message boards, this MORON trying to list off all the ways he felt that "Mask of the Phantasm" wasn't a good movie because he'd seen people suggest that it was the best Batman movie (which it is IMO), which obviously the only thing that registers in his head is that they obviously feel TDK isn't.

One of my favorite things about Batman is all the different versions, moods, etc. My own mood and view on life changes with the wind, and yet there is a version of the character and the "Bat Mythos" or whatever the right way to say it is for every mood and for every personality. And they're all great in their own way.

But don't try to tell a Nolan fanboy that. At least, unless you are up to date on your vaccinations.

[The Laughing Fish]

Listening to Nolan fans trying to dismiss other versions is draining. The scary part is you get the sense they actually believe the bullsh*t they're spouting.

It's not just the Nolan fans though. Unfortunately, even a lot of Marvel fans have become militant in their preference, going so far to say there were no good  Marvel films before the MCU. Including the Raimi Spider-Man films.

The truth is, pop culture itself attracts a lot bandwagoners who don't know what they're talking about, because they get caught up in the hype. Make no mistake, the entertainment industry encourages this behaviour. Never underestimate the power of critical consensus and how it influences people's perceptions. Particularly if a new movie comes out.

If the critics held the Burton films with the same nostalgic affection as they do for the first two Reeve Superman films, you'd see more people praising Keaton as "their" Batman. If the critics actually did their jobs by analysing the Nolan films properly and criticised their obvious faults, that fandom wouldn't be anywhere near as loud as they today. If every DCEU film was praised as Wonder Woman, you'd see more fans saying DC is brilliant, and wouldn't mention the issues that supposedly bother them.

In other words, the majority of people can't think for themselves.

[The Laughing Fish]

One of my favorite things about Batman is all the different versions, moods, etc. My own mood and view on life changes with the wind, and yet there is a version of the character and the "Bat Mythos" or whatever the right way to say it is for every mood and for every personality. And they're all great in their own way.

The character definitely has different interpretations over the years, but personally, I'm going to call something out if I don't like something. Which is fine. Everybody has their likes and dislikes.

For instance, if somebody didn't enjoy how the two main characters became responsible for creating each other as a new spin on how one bad day can turn somebody's life upside (similar to The Killing Joke), I can't convince them to like it if that's not the story they wanted to go for. I can tolerate if people don't care if Vicki Vale was arguably a gateway in the journey towards picking up the details why Bruce is Batman. Again, if that's not the preference they would've wanted, fine, I'd let bygones be bygones. But if people are going to criticise it in favour of how supposedly "great" something like TDK is, I'm not going to hold back in retorting with legitimate criticisms when they say something ridiculous.

[The Laughing Fish]

Rachel was 'beautiful' in The Dark Knight?!?

For somebody who has expressed feminist views in the GOTG2 thread, you seem pretty happy to make an unflattering comment about Maggie Gyllenhaal's looks as the love interest. I can't help but imagine feminists would take offense to your discriminating behaviour.

Anyway, putting that bullsh*t aside, here is this interview of Kim Basinger while promoting B89, talking about how she sees Vicki Vale and her experience with the Batsuit while on the set.

[The Laughing Fish]

Did anyone else find it unusual when Vicki is holding a bowl of popcorn and eating some as she watches Bruce confront the Joker during the "Let's get nuts!" scene? It's very eccentric. I guess it is supposed to be some sort of coping mechanism.