Was Two-Face accidentally killed?

[The Laughing Fish]

I had a debate with someone recently about Two-Face's death. I complained about how Batman's inconsistent morals were contradicted throughtout the trilogy, and I was told that Two-Face's death was an accident.

Am I the only who isn't convinced? Batman didn't just try to snatch the gun away from Two-Face, and Two-Face accidentally fell to his death as a result. No, he KNOCKED Two-Face right off the edge of the building. I have no doubt that he knew exactly what he was doing. And for what it's worth, TDK's script never mentioned Two-Face's death as accidental.

Any thoughts?

[DocLathropBrown]

You know what's funny: because it wasn't very far to fall and he looked to have landed all right (and Batman survived it), the first time I saw the film, I didn't get that Harvey had died! I assumed they were faking his death and he would go to Arkham or something. I was shocked when I found out he was supposed to have actually died.

[The Laughing Fish]

You know what's funny: because it wasn't very far to fall and he looked to have landed all right (and Batman survived it), the first time I saw the film, I didn't get that Harvey had died! I assumed they were faking his death and he would go to Arkham or something. I was shocked when I found out he was supposed to have actually died.

I always knew Harvey was killed because the ending shows his portrait appearing in the background as Gordon speaks at the memorial. What I didn't know at the time that Batman also covered up Harvey's death by claiming that he murdered him in cold blood. Now, wouldn't that actually cause a lot of suspicion? Why the hell would anybody believe that the crime-fighter killed Dent for no good reason? Especially when he not only saved Gotham from the League of Shadows, but also saved Dent's life - twice!   

And no way in hell that Joker would go along with the cover-up either, assuming that he's still alive and well by the end of the movie. He wanted to demoralise Gotham by corrupting its "beloved" Harvey Dent, but he'll suddenly stay quiet and allow Batman and Gordon to protect everyone from the truth?!

What do you think though, Doc? Does Two-Face's death look accidental to you?

[DocLathropBrown]

There's nothing to suggest that Batman meant to kill Dent, though. The narrative doesn't lend itself to anything like that. Were that even meant to be possible, there would be something in the film to bring that option to the table. And if there is, blame Nolan's poor diliniation of details for my inability to see it.

Bats may be loose with his moral code at-times in the Nolan trilogy, but that isn't one of them. Granted, even if Batman figured what he did would have killed Dent, it was a case of the child or Dent; and any version of Batman would (I hope) kill a nutjob to save an innocent child. It was the right thing to do, if it was even a case of Batman doing it on purpose.

[The Laughing Fish]

Bats may be loose with his moral code at-times in the Nolan trilogy, but that isn't one of them. Granted, even if Batman figured what he did would have killed Dent, it was a case of the child or Dent; and any version of Batman would (I hope) kill a nutjob to save an innocent child. It was the right thing to do, if it was even a case of Batman doing it on purpose.

But that's the one thing that irritates me. In any case, it does make that whole moral conflict with the Joker even more meaningless than it already was if it turns out that Batman is prepared to use lethal force after all.

I heard the argument that killing Joker off would have made Batman an executioner...but that's exactly what Batman did to Ra's al Ghul at the end of the first movie. And not once does that ever get addressed. In fact, Batman justifies to Talia that he had to end Ra's to save Gotham! Excuse me, but Joker was trying to kill lots of innocent (and not so innocent) people too, so why did Ra's get what he deserved and not Joker? It's incredibly shoddy storytelling if you ask me. It's not something that a thinking person will turn a blind eye to.

To be really honest with you, I'm still not even convinced that Batman didn't have any options to stop Two-Face. Batman could disappear in a blink of an eye without anybody noticing, survive falls from skyscraper buildings and car park platforms by crashing on top of cars, and do all the impossible nonsense he could pull off in TDKR. But he couldn't find a way to disarm Harvey without knocking over the building that will likely him?

That whole scene would've been far better to me if Batman tried to grab the gun away, and Harvey trips over by accident and Batman tries desperately hard to prevent him from falling to his death, but eventually fails. That would've been a lot more tragic and there'd be no questions about Batman's actions, instead of the blink-once-and-you'll-miss-it mess that we ended up getting. Hell, I've met a lot of people who didn't think Dent died accidentally. If Nolan wants to start telling stories coherently, he needs to start editing and staging his scenes properly to remove any ambiguity. Especially if it involves death scenes e.g. Two-Face, Bane and Talia. Then again, I suspect he likes it that way.

[The Dark Knight]

There's nothing to suggest that Batman meant to kill Dent, though.

Agreed. People can call his method clumsy I suppose, to attack the scene from that perspective. But at the end of the day I don't believe Nolan's Batman wanted to kill Dent, but rather save the boy.

[The Laughing Fish]

There's nothing to suggest that Batman meant to kill Dent, though.

Agreed. People can call his method clumsy I suppose, to attack the scene from that perspective. But at the end of the day I don't believe Nolan's Batman wanted to kill Dent, but rather save the boy.

Too bad Batman didn't apply the same standard when Joker was killing people left, right and center, and almost murdered a million more. 

Off-topic: I guess you could say that Superman didn't want to kill Zod in Man of Steel either, but lots of people call him a cold-blooded murderer despite the fact he saved that family and the world from a genocidal maniac. Go figure.

[Catwoman]

I always thought it was just Batman's only idea for how to save Gordon's son, to tackle the hell out of Harvey. Which like completely betrays Batman's legendary quick thinkingness (no that isn't a word lol). No matter how you twist it it ends up Swiss cheesified (another one I made up lol). Just another reason why the TDK movies are so overrated. They're good but not as good as Tim's and DEFINITELY not these flawless masterpieces or the definitive Batman. No way Jose.

[Catwoman]

And I'm like Doc Brown, lol. I thought Harvey was alive and it was a coverup.

[The Laughing Fish]

Bats may be loose with his moral code at-times in the Nolan trilogy, but that isn't one of them.

There was something else I forgot to mention - the Nolan brothers both acknowledged in TDK Trilogy Screenplays book that Batman does wind up breaking his rule. And they didn't only refer to BB...they referred to the the first two movies.

Jonathan Nolan: He as this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

One might argue that Batman didn't consciously mean to kill Two-Face, but that's a moot point if you ask me. The filmmakers wanted to have it both ways.