Design Changes and Canonicity

[Slash Man]

We all know the multiple design changes between the original Batman: The Animated Series and The New Batman Adventures. It's been said that most don't reflect literally, but how much represents an actual change when it comes to the characters?

An obvious one, the Riddler is seen destroying his costume in his last appearance in BTAS. We can assume that his TNBA jumpsuit is an actual representation of his newly devised costume.

Batgirl I'm not sure of. While it could be an unilateral change, I've imagined that one scenario is that the new black Batgirl costume is a result of Bruce's tailoring, and bestowed upon Barbara as Batman lets her into the cave in Old Wounds.

The Joker is definitely not literal, as BTAS-era flashbacks also show the new black-eyed Joker. Which then changes to the slightly different Justice League variation.

Bane's first costume got ripped up at the end of his BTAS appearance, seems logical that the TNBA appearance represents an updated costume.

The one I'm not sure about is Batman. His TNBA appearance is pretty much identical to his chronological first BTAS suit. Since the flashback in Old Wounds shows it as the same suit, I'll assume it was intended to be the same. Though I'd accept the Justice League suit as canon because of how it transitions into the Beyond suit.

Mr. Freeze is probably meant to be a literal change because of his robot body and such.

Mad Hatter is partially both; the gray hair suggests age, but the suddenly small stature doesn't represent an actual change. The suit could be either.

Penguin is the biggest; being suddenly un-deformed, the answer is obvious.

There's a lot of rumors/theories/unfinished plot ideas that describe the Scarecrow. I personally don't know what to think; I don't even know if his TAS redesign was supposed to be literal.

Any thoughts on the subject.

[The Laughing Fish]

I didn't mind Batman's redesign despite his face looking somewhat younger than it did in BTAS. My only complaint is that he is a lot more cold, detached and even somewhat callous compared to how he was in BTAS. Look at the episode I Am The Night where he felt he reached the end of his rope and is a lot more empathetic , and compare that to the Old Wounds episode where he feels unmoved during his conflict with Robin. You could even tell that it affected Kevin Conroy's voice too, where he sounded too calm. In fact, he stopped trying to mask his Bruce Wayne billionaire voice as well for the entire series! I guess that the showrunners were trying to tell us that Batman became more desensitized to his surroundings as he got older?

Let's not forget that Commissioner Gordon looks a lot more frail in TNBA compared to his robust physique in BTAS.





I could've done without the villains' design changes to be honest. Except for maybe Killer Croc, I don't really think any of them were an improvement from the original series. Am I alone in thinking that the Penguin's traditional, gentlemanly comic book look in TNBA came across somewhat thinner than his Batman Returns-inspired look? I actually prefer the BTAS design because it gave Penguin that comical appeal to his character, which is a complete contrast from the Burton version.

The Joker's redesign just sucks. I don't buy into the idea that they were under budget, I think they wanted to change for the sake of it. Too bad he looks less appealing and comical compared to how he looked in BTAS. By the way, does anybody else remember that Joker was referred to as Jack Napier by Dr. Bartholomew in Dreams in Darkness? He was never called by that name again, although the Beware of the Creeper episode in TNBA still used the Napier origin story. And if you remember Jack Ryder's news report, that incident supposedly took seven years earlier. I guess according to this, Batman's crusade between the present day in Mask of Phantasm and the two animated series took place almost a decade, at best. 

[Edd Grayson]

I dislike Joker's new design but the rest aren't bad.

[Slash Man]

The Joker's redesign just sucks. I don't buy into the idea that they were under budget, I think they wanted to change for the sake of it. Too bad he looks less appealing and comical compared to how he looked in BTAS.

At worst, budget cuts look like this:

(see also, Harley, Dick Grayson's Robin, Bullock)
When in motion, these characters felt even more so the same.

Nothing about the new Joker really clicked, which was why he was later reverted to some degree. The team really embraced the cheaper, stylized designs, which is why some of the designs went a little overboard. Still looks top notch, though.

I was kind of disappointed by the Penguin's change, even though they went back to the original plans they had. A really cool moment in the series that couldn't have been done otherwise is the introductory shots that show the villains just by their hands (including the Penguin's flippers). Couldn't have been done otherwise. The look they used was the mayor outfit of the Penguin from Returns, which was in turn a direct reference to the comics. So it all came full circle with a Penguin with the looks of the bird man from the movie with the larger than life attitude from the comics.

I guess according to this, Batman's crusade between the present day in Mask of Phantasm and the two animated series took place almost a decade, at best. 

Interesting that they'd give an exact date like that. Bruce took Dick in when he was no more than thirteen, so there's at least a five year gap in between that time, and then I forget how many years between BTAS and TNBA.

I think we could assume Bruce started being Batman in his late 20s/early 30s, and ended by the time he was in his early 60s, pre-Batman Beyond. Not a bad run. Way better than Bale's Batman's career.

Also, there's still a lot of potential for stories between the beginning in Mask of the Phantasm and the start of the Animated Series, pre-Robin, most notably, the Joker's backstory. And we've also got plenty of stories for young Robin between Robin's Reckoning and TAS. While the gaps between TAS and TNBA were mainly filled in, we still have from TNBA to Bruce's retirement.

[Catwoman]

One of my probs with the redesigns was the girls' bodies. Too angular. Not as realistic as BTAS.

Selina's redesign sucked. Didn't like the short hair or the all black, plain ass costume. Ivy was ok but not as good as before, and Harley was worse cause the suit stayed the same, just angled up.

They must have been picturing Madonna when they did them lol

[The Laughing Fish]

I agree that the Penguin's redesign made him look less appealing. It's a stark contrast to the charming outcast who wants to be respected by an elite group of people, i.e. Birds of a Feather. I suppose in TNBA, his success in hosting the Iceberg Lounge means that he found his niche. I guess the redesign reflected that.

You can tell that the TNBA designs tend to have wider shoulders, thin limbs and waists, and pointy feet. I'm not really trashing these designs but it is a step below compared to what we saw in the original series.

Selina's redesign sucked. Didn't like the short hair or the all black, plain ass costume. Ivy was ok but not as good as before, and Harley was worse cause the suit stayed the same, just angled up.

I never understood why she needed to put white make-up all over her mouth either.

Mad Hatter and Scarecrow changed drastically too. Hatter looked funny with the big teeth, straw-like hair and the long tuxedo. In TNBA, he was much shorter and even creepy-looking. In any case though, both designs looked similar to the late British comedian Rik Mayall.



He would've made a great live-action Mad Hatter. 

Scarecrow was redesigned three times over the years. Bruce Timm thought he couldn't make him look more intimidating if stuck with the original Scarecrow straw hat design, so he later redesigned him as somebody who resembled a "rotten corpse". Scarecrow's burlap sack mask was swapped with a decaying-looking skull mask and wore a noose around his neck. The voice acting changed from a sophisticated English professor into someone who sounds like the Grim Reaper.

[Catwoman]

Oops I didn't realize this was just about the design in terms of canon. Hm.

Ivy's, she changed a lot, but wasn't there like a comic book or something that takes place after the newer show where her new design like melts away sort of like she did in her escape in the House and Garden epi (one of the best epis ever of BTAS btw) and her BTAS design shows up and reveals the new one was a clone or something? I think I read that but I may have imagined it when I fell off the cart and got drunk lol.

[Slash Man]

I've re-watched The Mask of the Phantasm, and the time in between Batman's first year and the present is ten years. At the time, Batman must have been 24-25 (presently ~35). Joker was also around the same age. It would seem like a plot hole that Jack became the Joker only seven years previous to The New Batman Adventures, but it can be consolidated somewhat. TNBA takes place two years later, meaning that Batman would have been at it five years before that confrontation. I loved watching TNBA, but some of the retcons make you wonder. Speaking of which, the name Jack Napier was also seen in Joker's Wild; it was Beware the Creeper that eventually retconned this and inferred that he only used aliases.

I think I might branch out and make a different thread chronicling the timeline of the series.

While I didn't like Selina's short, dark hair in the revamp, I was fine with the suit (could've used red lipstick instead of black, though). Strangely, this was a callback to Batman Returns, in which the opposite changes happened between Penguin and Catwoman when it came to TAS and TNBA (Penguin was envisioned as his comic appearance, but changed to the movie appearance; opposite went for Catwoman). I didn't have too much of a problem with the pale face, they were just trying to imitate Michelle Pfeiffer's appearance. That wasn't supposed to be taken as actual makeup, just something to add some more interesting features to the costume (like Batman's black eye makeup in the movies).

Though it's interesting that you bring up the redesigns for female characters. all of them seemed to have gotten micro-waists and larger heads. It worked for Barbara/Batgirl, but seemed to clash with previously established mature women like Catwoman and Poison Ivy. They look like young girls now.

[Catwoman]

Oh my freaking gosh did you make the manip or whatever they're called lol of the BTAS design in the all black with the pale face like Returns? That is like the greatest thing ever!

[Slash Man]

That was just the crew's original design, actually. I believe Kenner wanted gray Catwoman toys, and that's what prompted the design change in the end.