could Batman: Triumphant have saved the series?

[mrrockey]

If the series never got rebooted and we got Batman: Triumphant, do you think it could have worked? Normally, when a series like this goes off-the-rail, I would assume it was time to take a break and start over but since the Burton/Schumacher series was relatively loose in continuity, with each film being its own separate adventure that doesn't require viewing earlier installments to understand, could Batman: Triumphant simply continue the tone of the Burton films while adding a few elements in from the Schumacher films such as Robin and Batgirl for the sake of continuity or just simply ignore both Forever and Batman & Robin and just continue off Returns or maybe even the first film.

I don't know, do you think it could have worked?

Discuss...

[Edd Grayson]

If they had made it more like Batman and less like Schumacher's films, I think so.


I don't even dislike Schumacher's Batman that much, but compared to Burton it's not that good.

[arnaud187]

Does anyone has a copy of the script to read?

[johnnygobbs]

Does anyone has a copy of the script to read?

I've seen it online before, and quite recently too, but a search provides nothing.  If I find it I'll post the link here.

Sorry I can't be of any more help at the moment.

[riddler]

I didn't think the script was ever released online. I don't think Shumacher is the antichrist the way some folks do but there's no denying he got things wrong. One main problem was casting; he wanted the biggest stars rather than the right actor. Example, the stuido wanted Anthony Hopkins or Patrick Stewart for Mr. Freeze but he pushed for Arnold with Stallone as his fall back. He seemed to be pushing for Howard Stern and Madonna in Triumphant and I doubt neither of them would have saved the film.


It would have been interesting though; Schumachers serious films are decent. A time to kill, phone booth, the flatliners etc. Those films had tones which could have been good.


It's really too bad Burton never got to do a bat film with the Scarecrow, THAT would have been something to see.

[johnnygobbs]

I didn't think the script was ever released online. I don't think Shumacher is the antichrist the way some folks do but there's no denying he got things wrong. One main problem was casting; he wanted the biggest stars rather than the right actor. Example, the stuido wanted Anthony Hopkins or Patrick Stewart for Mr. Freeze but he pushed for Arnold with Stallone as his fall back. He seemed to be pushing for Howard Stern and Madonna in Triumphant and I doubt neither of them would have saved the film.


It would have been interesting though; Schumachers serious films are decent. A time to kill, phone booth, the flatliners etc. Those films had tones which could have been good.


It's really too bad Burton never got to do a bat film with the Scarecrow, THAT would have been something to see.

Maybe the copy I saw was a fake (or maybe I imagined it all), but I honestly recall reading a screenplay called 'Batman Triumphant' apparently written by Mark Protosevich.  What I recall from it was that Harley Quinn was a former circus performer and colleague of the Flying Graysons/friend of teenage Dick Grayson, who was obsessed with The Joker and vowed to kill Batman after the Joker fell to his death (she wasn't the Joker's daughter or former lover as had been rumoured), and the Scarecrow/Jonathan Crane was a college professor much like he is in the comic-books.  Batgirl didn't feature and Bruce didn't have a prominent love-interest (simply a gold-digging bimbo type, not based on any of the comic-book characters, who appears for a scene or two).

As far as casting went I recall reading that Madonna and Jenny McCarthy were linked to Harley Quinn, and Jeff Goldblum as a leading contender for The Scarecrow (as I recall the Howard Stern rumour was effectively a throwaway joke, as 'Private Parts' had recently been released).  Brad Dourif or Mark Lynn-Baker were mentioned in relation to Man-Bat who was also supposed to feature.

[Slash Man]

It's a good question, and sadly one that we won't have an answer to.

Schumacher was under a lot of pressure from the studio to divert as far from Burton as possible, and the success of Forever only validated the studio's wishes to amp up the goofiness for Batman & Robin. I'd very much like to see how Joel would deliver with more freedom.

The question can partially be answered by Schumacher's cut of Batman Forever, which we've yet to see. The stories may be similar to Burton's, but his artistic vision is the night and day contrast. Burton's doom and gloom against Schumacher's neon lights.

In terms of popularity, I think he's easily capable of bringing things back in the direction of Forever, and possibly further. Batman Forever met the kind of balance where it wasn't too sophisticated for little kids, but was still serious enough to be enjoyed by adults. So yes, I do think a film that does that could bring the Batman series back into step.

[riddler]

It's a good question, and sadly one that we won't have an answer to.

Schumacher was under a lot of pressure from the studio to divert as far from Burton as possible, and the success of Forever only validated the studio's wishes to amp up the goofiness for Batman & Robin. I'd very much like to see how Joel would deliver with more freedom.

The question can partially be answered by Schumacher's cut of Batman Forever, which we've yet to see. The stories may be similar to Burton's, but his artistic vision is the night and day contrast. Burton's doom and gloom against Schumacher's neon lights.

In terms of popularity, I think he's easily capable of bringing things back in the direction of Forever, and possibly further. Batman Forever met the kind of balance where it wasn't too sophisticated for little kids, but was still serious enough to be enjoyed by adults. So yes, I do think a film that does that could bring the Batman series back into step.

I think we pretty much know what the directors cut would be like. The deleted scenes greatly improved the movie. I don't have much doubt that had Shumacher gotten freedom in Forever, it would have been on par with the Burton films.

Now that being said Shumacher isn't without his own faults; without sounding homophobic, the homosexual undertones (constant crotch shots, bat nipples, batmobile design) were his doing and Kane and co begged him to avoid it. As well he does have his misfires. He did okay with Phanton of the Opera but that film could have been a blockbuster and he didn't make it as big as he could have. His last 3 films have been flops, he may never direct a theatrical release again (currently he's relegated to TV).

It should be noted that Schumacher is the biggest comic fan of the 3 film directors. I think he got the material and figured that given WB's constraints, basing a film on the 60's was the most likely way to delivery.

[Silver Nemesis]

I think we pretty much know what the directors cut would be like. The deleted scenes greatly improved the movie. I don't have much doubt that had Shumacher gotten freedom in Forever, it would have been on par with the Burton films.

Agreed.

As well he does have his misfires. He did okay with Phanton of the Opera but that film could have been a blockbuster and he didn't make it as big as he could have. His last 3 films have been flops, he may never direct a theatrical release again (currently he's relegated to TV).

His filmography is very hit and miss. I thought St. Elmo's Fire (1985) was pretty bad. It's competently made on a technical level, but it has one of the most unlikeable groups of protagonists in the history of cinema. At first I thought that was the point – that it was a critique of overprivileged eighties bourgeois yuppie culture and that we were meant to hate these guys. But by the end of the movie I realised we were supposed to like and identify with them. That was definitely one of his duds. However The Lost Boys (1987) and Falling Down (1993) are both excellent films. Flatliners (1990), The Client (1994) and Phone Booth (2002) are also good. It's a pity the negativity surrounding his Batman films has overshadowed his other accomplishments.

It's harsh how certain directors can make a bunch of good movies, only to end up being remembered for the bad ones. A similar thing happened with Sidney J Furie, director of The Young Ones (1961), The Leather Boys (1964), The Ipcress File (1965), The Lady Sings the Blues (1971), The Boys in Company C (1978) and The Entity (1981). Despite making some genuine classics, everyone now remembers him as the guy who directed Superman IV: The Quest for Peace (1987).

It should be noted that Schumacher is the biggest comic fan of the 3 film directors. I think he got the material and figured that given WB's constraints, basing a film on the 60's was the most likely way to delivery.

I'm glad someone mentioned this. Burton and Nolan have both admitted they weren't familiar with the comics before embarking on their Batman film projects. Hence why they needed Sam Hamm and David Goyer respectively to help them adhere to the source material. But Schumacher's the one director who genuinely grew up on the comics. I've always suspected Sam in the Lost Boys to be a reflection of Joel's adolescent self; a creative comic book fan with a flamboyant fashion sense and a wild imagination.

Ultimately his take on the source material was just as valid as Nolan's or Burton's. His may not have been the best Batman films, but I've grown to like them for what they are. In answer to the thread title, I think Batman Triumphant would have been a big improvement over Batman and Robin. Schumacher had something to prove with his third Batman film. It was a chance for him to redeem himself, and all the indicators point towards it being a darker, more Burtonesque movie that would have restored the series to its 1989 roots.

[Slash Man]

Now that being said Shumacher isn't without his own faults; without sounding homophobic, the homosexual undertones (constant crotch shots, bat nipples, batmobile design) were his doing and Kane and co begged him to avoid it.

I recall that Furst and Burton joked about the first Batmobile being phallic  Jokes aside, I can see what you mean. The nipples were something that (IMO) was blown out of proportion, but the ass shots were something that was in your face and didn't really serve a purpose. That and a few other things just kinda made you scratch your head.

Also, when it comes to saving the Batman series post-1997, what about just bringing Burton back? Think about it, everyone would win in that case, and audiences would be assured of a return to roots just at the mention of Burton's name. Maybe he'd pick things up from Returns, maybe he'd continue the series (I highly doubt a complete remake at that point, though). Either way, I'd love to see it.