Marvel's Daredevil (Netflix)

[Silver Nemesis]

Charlie's Daredevil mask appeared in a Spider-Man: Far From Home sketch on the Jimmy Kimmel show. At the 2:13 mark.

This is probably the only time we'll ever hear Holland's Spider-Man reference "Matt".

[Silver Nemesis]

https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/06/12/daredevil-season-3-one-shot-hallway-scene-not-emmy-elligible/

Not that I care about the Emmys, but it would be nice to see some recognition where it's so obviously due. This show just can't catch a break.

[thecolorsblend]

Hate to say it. But I think that, in the end, it'll really only be fans and certain types of critics who see the value and merit of the Netflixverse. The Hollywood establishment doesn't seem to have any love for this material... and it doesn't look as though Marvel Studios is very interested in being an advocate for any of the shows, least of all Daredevil.

[Silver Nemesis]

Sadly that's true. Jessica Jones season 3 launched on Friday, though you'd hardly know it to look at the lack of promotion or online buzz. There was just one trailer for this season, and Netflix only released it about a week before the show launched. Compare that with the marketing campaigns and hype that preceded the first round of Marvel Netflix shows back in 2015, and it's really sad to see the whole thing end with such a whimper. These guys were the Marvel Knights of the MCU. It's the end of an era.

I saw someone post a link to this Reddit AMA on another site. I don't know how legit it is, but it offers some behind-the-scenes info on what happened with these shows.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Defenders/comments/bulz4r/alright_yall_amaa/

Jeph Loeb and Jessica Henwick come off pretty badly (see the story about Jeph tearing into the kids from Stranger Things), while Charlie Cox, Jon Bernthal and Finn Jones come across well. There's some surprising info here about the producers wanting Alice Eve for DD s4 so they could adapt Nocenti's Typhoid Mary arc. I wasn't expecting that, since they'd already done a weak version of that storyline in IF s2.

This source also makes it depressingly clear that the shows are not coming back in their current form. But it sounds like Marvel might have plans to bring Cox and Bernthal back in another TV show or movie further down the line. For the rest of The Defenders though, I get the impression this really is the end.

[thecolorsblend]

I am choosing my words very carefully here.

I've never met Jeph Loeb. But my sense of the guy is that he's somebody who does good interviews and PR stuff, which is a more in-demand skill in Hollywood than some people might think. He's also a pretty gifted writer. His creative process looks disorganized to outsider observers but he never struggled with hitting deadlines the way a lot of other "pros" did all through the 2000's. What he hands in might not necessarily be The Grapes Of Wrath but he probably will hand whatever it is in on time, which is a more in-demand skill in the comic book "industry" than some people might think.

All in all, I can see how he's had the success he's had.

Still, I can't shake the suspicion that the guy is an unbearable a-hole behind closed doors. Everybody who has ever worked for him either has a weird unbreakable loyalty to him or else they never want to so much as hear his name ever again. I also find it telling that Mr. Nice Guy Jim Lee has done precious little work with Loeb apart from Hush, which is weird since they were both rock stars at almost the same time. Almost. Oddly enough, Jim Lee's ascendancy at DC seems oddly coincidentally timed with Loeb's descent at DC. Strange, yes?

It's an open secret that Loeb made a ton of enemies at DC Comics his first few years there. And he never completely got around that. Word is that he and Mike Carlin nearly came to blows one time over Loeb's infamous Challengers Of The Unknown miniseries. The Superman titles later did a COTU guest appearance that a lot of people (myself included) interpret as a big middle finger to Loeb.

Can I believe that Loeb berated a bunch of small children? That seems extreme even for him. But if I can believe it of anybody, it would be him.

[The Laughing Fish]

Hate to say it. But I think that, in the end, it'll really only be fans and certain types of critics who see the value and merit of the Netflixverse. The Hollywood establishment doesn't seem to have any love for this material... and it doesn't look as though Marvel Studios is very interested in being an advocate for any of the shows, least of all Daredevil.

Sadly, you're absolutely right about Marvel Studios showing no interest in supporting anything the Netflixverse has established. It has just been confirmed at SDCC that Mahershala Ali, who played Cottonmouth in the first season of Luke Cage, will star as Blade in the MCU reboot:

https://deadline.com/2019/07/blade-being-rebooted-by-marvel-with-mahershala-ali-1202650043/

The only actors who have played multiple roles in the MCU were bit part, supporting characters. I just don't see them reviving any of the Netflix characters in the same universe where Ali has played both a hero and a villain.

I've said this before in the Iron Fist thread, but I'll say it here too. We can complain about Daredevil's cancellation all we want, and we have every right to do so. But, if you ignore the Benjamin Poindexter post credit scene for a moment, at least we can take comfort the rest of the third season was a fitting conclusion for a series finale. In hindsight, you couldn't have asked for a better ending after such a premature cancellation. Matt Murdock certainly had closure, unlike Luke Cage or Iron Fist.

[Silver Nemesis]

The 2019 Emmy nominations were announced last week, and as expected Daredevil was completely ignored. Not even a nomination for stunt work. Oh well.

It seems there's a reference to the Netflix show in the new Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 game. There's a stage where the characters move into a corridor and the camera shifts to a 2D side-scrolling perspective, whereupon Daredevil makes the following remark:

He sure looks like Charlie's Daredevil.

A while back I predicted we'd hear about a revival of this series on Hulu sometime late next year. Since I made that prediction, new information has been leaked that indicates this won't be possible. If the leaks and rumours are accurate, then this series is dead along with the rest of the Netflixverse. And it won't be coming back.

So what does the future hold for Daredevil? Kevin Feige confirmed that the line-up of films and TV shows announced at Comic-Con is the complete Phase 4 and not merely the first half as many people had assumed. That means Phase 4 is only going to last for two years and will consist of five films and five TV shows.

Interestingly, the third Spider-Man solo film is not present on the list. Most fans expected it to be released in July 2021, and it's still possible Sony might announce that date. But so far they haven't. So if we assume that Feige is accurate in describing the Comic-Con list as the whole of Phase 4, then that means the third Spider-Man solo movie won't be out until Phase 5, and that won't be until 2022 at the earliest.

If this is true, and assuming Sony doesn't contradict Feige's statement by announcing a 2021 release date, then I'm going to go ahead and predict that a new MCU version of Daredevil will be introduced in the third Spider-Man movie. Far From Home ended in such a way that Peter is going to need a lawyer, and who better for the job? Already fan-made images have been cropping up online to tease this.

But if Daredevil is brought into the movies, will it be the version from the Netflix show? No. I don't think so. From what I've heard, there is a slim possibility they might bring Charlie back. But even if they do, it's extremely unlikely he'll be playing the same version of Daredevil from the TV series. It's far more likely that Charlie, or whoever else may take the part, will be playing a new version of Matt.

Another rumour suggests the Netflix Daredevil might cross over into the MCU in the next Doctor Strange film, but in light of the 2021 release date I think that would be too soon after the October 2020 embargo stipulated by the Netflix contract. But a Spider-Man movie scheduled for 2022 or later would probably be viable. And then perhaps a Daredevil solo film as part of Phase 5.

Feige commented on the use of the Netflix characters earlier this month:

I don't know. There were a lot of great characters that were on those Netflix series, and I think there is a period of time...it'll be a while before we could use any of them based on what the contracts were, so I'm not sure. And also, even answering that question is a spoiler. But there are some great Marvel characters there. Who would you want to see?

https://mcuexchange.com/kevin-feige-netflix-characters-films-mcu/

The most interesting thing here is the "even answering that question is a spoiler" part. Why would it be a spoiler if they didn't have plans for at least one of these characters?

Presumably a new Daredevil would be lighter in tone in order to blend in with the MCU's PG-13 landscape. I can live with this, provided they don't go full Mark Waid and make it a retro Silver Age affair. Daredevil is a dark character, and if you try and regress him to his original sixties persona – which Waid more or less did during his run – then you lose many of the layers that make him such a deep and compelling character.

That said, they should avoid repeating anything from the Miller comics. The TV show covered all of Miller's classic stories and did a great job of it. There are plenty of other Daredevil writers they could look to for inspiration, and many more villains they could use. Supposing Marvel Studios was planning a new Daredevil movie trilogy, and they wanted to do it without repeating anything from the TV show. Could it be done?

Of course. For one thing, they could set it in San Francisco. In the comics Matt lived in San Francisco from 1972-1974, and then again from 2014-2016. I prefer it when he's in Hell's Kitchen, as that's his natural habitat. But if they really wanted to distinguish a movie from the TV show, setting it in a different city might be a way to go.

Foggy is a very important part of the mythology and should really appear in any adaptation. But again, if we assume they want to avoid reusing the character then there are alternatives. If they want a platonic friend to work with Matt, other than Foggy, they could use Willie Lincoln, Becky Blake or Sam Chung. If they want a love interest other than Karen or Elektra, there are plenty to pick from: Heather Glenn, Glorianna O'Breen, Maya Lopez, Milla Donovan, Kirsten McDuffie, etc. Echo would be a great alternative to Elektra (even though Mark Steven Johnson already used some of Echo's storyline for the 2003 movie). If they want a spiritual guide to replace Father Lantom or Maggie, they could use Father Jordan. There was more to Maggie's story than what we saw in season 3 of the TV show, so I'd really like to see that character revisited at some point. But for now, let's assume they won't reuse anyone from the TV series.

They could bring in characters like Rosalind Sharpe, Dakota North and Master Izo. Much as I like Bob Gunton's take on Owlsley, I wouldn't mind seeing a more traditional version of the Owl as a movie villain. There are also plenty of other villains they didn't use in the TV show that could show up in the films: Eric Slaughter, Bullet, Muse, Leap-Frog, Mister Fear, Matador, Masked Marauder, Jester, the Enforcers, Lady Bullseye, Tombstone, Johnny Sockets, Stilt-Man, Alexander Bont, Bushwacker, Ammo, the Wildboys, Ikari, etc. They could also utilise more comic-accurate versions of Daredevil villains that appeared in other TV shows, such as Mister Hyde, Purple Man, Nuke and Typhoid Mary.

If they were going to make a new Daredevil movie trilogy, it might be wise to move away from the gritty crime drama angle (which they already covered beautifully in the TV series) and focus on the supernatural occult side. Make the most of the bigger budget and have Daredevil work with Doctor Strange to battle foes like Mephisto, Blackheart, Death-Stalker and Hellspawn.

They could even bring in Blindspot and the Ordo Draconum. That way they could make a gothic supernatural version of Daredevil that was still faithful to the comics but avoided repeating anything from the TV show. Because let's face it, they're never going to top the TV series. So they might as well do something different.

Two things I would like them to carry over from the series are Charlie and Vincent. It doesn't matter if they're playing different versions of the characters. Just bring them back like they did with (SPOILER for Far From Home) J. K. Simmons as J. Jonah Jameson. That would go a long way to winning the support of the fans and avoiding the kind of consumer resistance The Amazing Spider-Man movies encountered.

But whatever happens, can we please have The Defenders and Daredevil season 3 on Blu-ray?

[thecolorsblend]

If they were going to make a new Daredevil movie trilogy, it might be wise to move away from the gritty crime drama angle (which they already covered beautifully in the TV series) and focus on the supernatural occult side. Make the most of the bigger budget and have Daredevil work with Doctor Strange to battle foes like Mephisto, Blackheart, Death-Stalker and Hellspawn.

If things had played out differently with Defenders, I might've suggested Shadowland. Alas...

Y'know, before this Dr. Strange & The Multiverse Of Madness thing came along, I would've suggested that a Stan Lee/Karl Kesel/Mark Waid, lighter, more swashbuckling take on the character could be a good alternative to the Netflix show. But if Multiverse Of Madness really is authentic horror then maybe, just maybe, a sort of gothic supernatural horror thing might play.

As you say, the main issue should be avoiding Miller's stuff from now on. It's been done. Brilliantly, at that. So it's definitely time for a new direction.

[Silver Nemesis]

Y'know, before this Dr. Strange & The Multiverse Of Madness thing came along, I would've suggested that a Stan Lee/Karl Kesel/Mark Waid, lighter, more swashbuckling take on the character could be a good alternative to the Netflix show.

They could take a Silver Age approach. And if they did, I'd have no right to complain. The lighter "happy Matt" version of the character is perfectly legitimate and harkens back to the earliest Stan Lee comics. But it would still feel regressive. Matt evolved beyond that characterisation decades ago, and nowadays fans expect something darker and more layered. The Netflix show introduced Daredevil to a wider audience of fans who don't necessarily read the comics, and I doubt they'd be enthusiastic about a reboot that ventured too far into Silver Age silliness. I wouldn't expect a movie reboot to be anywhere near as dark as the Netflix show, but nor should it stray too far in the opposite direction.

Still, I'd prefer a Silver Age Daredevil movie over an inferior rehash of stories that were already covered in the TV show.

If things had played out differently with Defenders, I might've suggested Shadowland. Alas...

I was watching some Daredevil gameplay footage from Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, and it turns out the level containing the hallway line is actually based on Shadowland. Here's Daredevil's introductory cutscene.

I don't know if you read Charles Soule's Mayor Fisk storyline last year, colors, but that arc basically turns into Shadowland 2 towards the end. Soule retconned the Chaste's status as the arch enemy of the Hand; instead the Hand's new arch enemy is Ordo Draconum, the Vatican's secret army of monster slayers (obviously inspired by the real life Order of the Dragon) that have been battling supernatural threats for centuries.

Towards the end of the Mayor Fisk arc the Hand invade New York (again), Daredevil gets possessed and has to undergo an exorcism (again), and the denouement sees Matt leading a squad of Ordo Draconum commandos in battle against the army of the Beast. In light of the MCU's predilection for battle-centric finales, this would make the perfect ending to a big budget Daredevil movie. It wouldn't have fit the tone of the TV show, and they wouldn't have had the budget to shoot it anyway, but it would be ideal for a film.

I liked how the Hand were portrayed in Daredevil season 2, but the depiction went downhill from Iron Fist season 1 onwards. The Netflixverse also removed the Beast from the Hand's mythology, which is a pretty big oversight. So I wouldn't mind seeing the Hand revisited on the big screen – this time featuring Snakeroot and the Beast – and that would leave the door open to storylines like Shadowland and Mayor Fisk. I liked the Mayor Fisk arc a lot more than Shadowland, but I can see how the two storylines might be merged together to form a dark middle entry in a DD movie trilogy.

Then the third movie could be loosely based on the Lone Stranger and Reborn storylines, with Matt wandering the Earth while Mephisto sends Blackheart and other demonic agents to torment him.

By the end of the movie, Matt would be back in New York and could team up with Doctor Strange to journey into Hell and confront Mephisto (Matt faced off against Mephisto in Hell during Nocenti's run, so it's not that farfetched). This would make a great cinematic spectacle for the trilogy's finale.

In the original comic Silver Surfer entered Hell to help Daredevil escape. If they've introduced the Surfer by then, he could appear in the movie as well. Otherwise Strange could take his role in the film. Or maybe all of this would be too dark for a PG-13 movie. The gothic supernatural angle isn't the only way to go, but it's definitely a direction I'd approve of and there's plenty of material in the comics to support it. In general, I like the idea of the cinematic Daredevil being closer in tone to Doctor Strange and The Winter Soldier than to the recent Spider-Man films.

Another possibility is that they could introduce Matt as a supporting character in the Black Widow movies. I don't know if the upcoming BW solo film is meant to be a standalone picture or the beginning of a trilogy. If there are sequels, they might throw Matt in as a love interest. Those two characters have a long history in the comics and even shared a title for a while during the seventies. In terms of how they might introduce Matt into Natasha's world, I'm thinking of that story by Mike W. Barr and Frank Miller from What If? Vol 1 #28 (August 1981), where instead of becoming a vigilante Matt became an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. whose codename was Daredevil.

I really hope they don't do this, as I'd hate to see Matt play second fiddle to Natasha, but it's another possible way to go.

So that gives us four possible directions a big screen Daredevil might take:

1.   Light-hearted Silver Age adventure, influenced by Waid's run and possibly connected with the Spider-Man films (this could work, but wouldn't be ideal)

2.   Dark gritty crime drama influenced by Miller's run; basically a big budget PG-13 retread of the TV show (this would be a disaster)

3.   Spooky fantasy saga featuring powerful nonhuman threats and tying in with the supernatural side of the MCU (this could be great if executed properly)

4.   Espionage thriller where DD is a sidekick/love interest to Black Widow (this would also be a disaster)

A fifth option might simply be to have fantasy crime stories akin to the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies. As long as they upped the scope of the action and avoided making it too dark (and avoided retreading Miller's stories) it might just work.

[The Laughing Fish]

Season 1 showrunner Steven DeKnight bought the Daredevil suit from the auction:

For those of you who don't know, they're auctioning off props from the Marvel Netflix shows today. And I'm happy to report that this bad boy is coming home to live at the offices of DeKnight Productions, where it belongs!

https://twitter.com/stevendeknight/status/1160996249849487360

Some fanboy, however, had this rather unflattering thing to say about the costume.

No that terrible reptilian fibreglass polymer travesty belongs in a dumpster fire or a Joel Schumacher film. This is what Daredevil looks like.

https://twitter.com/AikidoMarcoFord/status/1161011612150620161

DeKnight gave a simple answer that got over 1,100 likes:

f*** off.

https://twitter.com/stevendeknight/status/1161013205243580417

Haha. My only little gripe with the Netflix costume is the neck is the polyester under the jaw is a little loose. Otherwise, I really like the costume.

Besides, anybody who claims the costume belongs in a Joel Schumacher Batman movie has no credibility whatsoever.