Marvel's Daredevil (Netflix)

[thecolorsblend]

Unrelated to anything specific with your post, I think the Bendis/Maleev run on Daredevil is probably my favorite. I binged through those issues but I can see where it was frustrating to read those comics on a monthly basis. But sucking them up like I did was one of the top 10 comic book reading projects of my entire life.

In fact, that Bendis run is probably the main reason I was instantly on board with Cox being cast as Murdock. He has a sort of Maleev look to him to begin with so it never took much imagination to see him playing the role.

[Silver Nemesis]

Unrelated to anything specific with your post, I think the Bendis/Maleev run on Daredevil is probably my favorite. I binged through those issues but I can see where it was frustrating to read those comics on a monthly basis. But sucking them up like I did was one of the top 10 comic book reading projects of my entire life.

I'd still rate Miller's run as my favourite, chiefly because he introduced more innovations to the mythology than any other writer. But Bendis is probably my second favourite Daredevil author.

'Underboss' and 'Out' constitute one of the best superhero stories ever IMO. DD's secret identity being blown wasn't something they neatly undid the following issue. Rather they ran with the consequences of his exposure for over a decade. Writers like Brubaker, Diggle and Waid got plenty of mileage out of it. Now Marvel's reinstated DD's secret identity, but I'm happy with that decision. The time was finally right for it. Soule's taking things in a fresh direction (having Matt work as a prosecutor for the D.A.'s office and tutoring a sidekick) that wouldn't have worked if DD's true identity remained out in the open. So while I'm pleased with the direction the current comics are heading, I'm also glad Marvel had the balls to honour the 'Out' storyline for as long as they did. If it had been one of their more popular characters, I'm not sure they would have taken the risk.

I also love 'Hardcore' and 'The King of Hell's Kitchen'. Those stories contain one of the most badass depictions of Daredevil ever. Occasionally I see comments from people online claiming Jessica Jones would stomp Matt in a fight. My response to that is to direct them to 'The King of Hell's Kitchen'. In Alias JJ was kayoed by a single unarmed lowlife high on MGH. In 'The King of Hell's Kitchen' Matt took on 100 heavily armed yakuza enforcers – all high on MGH – and not only did he get the better of them, but he did it in under three minutes. That fight scene is probably the single coolest feat I've seen in a superhero comic. His showdowns with Bullseye, Typhoid and Kingpin in 'Hardcore' were also very memorable.

Another story I love from Bendis' run is 'Decalogue', which narrowly edges out Soule's recent 'Dark Art' storyline for all-time creepiest Daredevil comic. I never usually find horror comics frightening, but I'll admit 'Decalogue' sent a shiver down my spine.

Have you ever read Daredevil: End of Days, colors?

It's essentially the Daredevil equivalent of The Dark Knight Returns - a dark 'what if' scenario exploring a possible future/fate for the Man Without Fear. I won't say more about the plot in case you haven't read it, but I highly recommend it. Particularly if you're a fan of Citizen Kane...

In fact, that Bendis run is probably the main reason I was instantly on board with Cox being cast as Murdock. He has a sort of Maleev look to him to begin with so it never took much imagination to see him playing the role.

Absolutely.

I think Maleev's visual style also informed the cinematography of the TV series more than any other artist. It's no coincidence they included one of his covers on the front page of a newspaper in the season one finale. They also referenced it in a promo pic.

[thecolorsblend]

I'd still rate Miller's run as my favourite, chiefly because he introduced more innovations to the mythology than any other writer. But Bendis is probably my second favourite Daredevil author.

He had a ton of amazing ideas for the title. It's one of the reasons why I typically disagree when people criticize Bendis too much. A hack or a loser or whatever Bendis is supposed to be could never have written Underboss, much less the amazing stuff that came later. I'm not saying Bendis is God's gift to comics but I am pretty much done with people picking on him for no reason.

Especially when there are so many good reasons to pick on him... but they have nothing to do with this thread so moving right along...

Have you ever read Daredevil: End of Days, colors?

It's essentially the Daredevil equivalent of The Dark Knight Returns - a dark 'what if' scenario exploring a possible future/fate for the Man Without Fear. I won't say more about the plot in case you haven't read it, but I highly recommend it. Particularly if you're a fan of Citizen Kane...

The name "Bendis" and the concept of EOD are literally the only things that got me through that limited series. I have fairly middle-of-the-road tastes when it comes to comic book art. So nutso artists like Klaus Janson or Bill Sienkiewicz on the art is always a turnoff. And by that, I mean they're usually deal-breakers for me.

Pairing the two of them up is a criminal, borderline unholy, act in my opinion.

As to the story itself... eh. I never gave much thought to how Daredevil's story might end. But I guess the EOD concept is as good as anything. I think the main reason I was able to work my way through it is because I interpreted the story as outside continuity. So EOD isn't necessarily Daredevil's gospel or anything. I really enjoyed what Bendis did with Elektra in that story. Of all characters, I buy that she does the things she does in EOD. Other characters... well, whether it's believable or not it's still hard to enjoy some of it. Especially the Mapone angle.

I think Maleev's visual style also informed the cinematography of the TV series more than any other artist. It's no coincidence they included one of his covers on the front page of a newspaper in the season one finale. They also referenced it in a promo pic.

And here I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

[Silver Nemesis]

It's not one of my favourite stories, but by the sounds of it I enjoyed it more than you did. I think the reason I liked End of Days is that it feels like Bendis' apocryphal conclusion to his own run. The story picks up several years after the events of his last story, but does so in a way that makes no allowance for his successors' contributions. For example, the depiction of Milla doesn't acknowledge what happened to her during Brubaker's run. Rather it picks up where Bendis' run ended and reads as if her subsequent misfortunes never happened. It feels like Bendis capping off his Daredevil in the same way Moore capped off the Pre-Crisis Superman in Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?

Bendis had previously explored the idea of Stick's reincarnation in his Daredevil: Ninja miniseries roughly ten years earlier. But that story was more of a follow-up to Kevin Smith's 'Guardian Devil' and it received a very mixed response from fans (it's ok, but nothing special). End of Days was basically his second and more thorough attempt at exploring the same concept and is arguably the better of the two miniseries.

[thecolorsblend]

Bendis had previously explored the idea of Stick's reincarnation in his Daredevil: Ninja miniseries roughly ten years earlier. But that story was more of a follow-up to Kevin Smith's 'Guardian Devil' and it received a very mixed response from fans (it's ok, but nothing special). End of Days was basically his second and more thorough attempt at exploring the same concept and is arguably the better of the two miniseries.

The reincarnation thing kind of bothered me, tbh. Without dwelling too much on my religious views, I don't believe in reincarnation IRL. But even as a fictional concept, I've never liked the idea of reincarnation since most writers use it as a gimmick instead of something a bit more inventive.

Still, the reincarnation thing was a bit of a twist ending. I was expecting Bendis to take the obvious way out of having Stick's reincarnation tutor Matt's child. But obviously Bendis took it in a more creative direction and I could at least appreciate (and in a way kind of enjoy) how wrong I was with my original guess on how things would wrap up.

I haven't read very many The End titles apart from this and the Punisher but what I enjoy about the concept is comparing how they play out vs. how I always imagined them playing out. It's hard to get much darker than the Punisher's The End story... and yet it was just about the perfect ending for the Ennis run on the Punisher.

I need to check out more of these things.

[Silver Nemesis]

Considering Daredevil is probably the most explicitly Christian hero out there (unless you count Bibleman...), the theme of reincarnation is a bit out of place. Themes of reincarnation are better suited to the Iron Fist comics, while themes of resurrection work better for Daredevil (Elektra's storyline being the most obvious example).

I've not read Punisher: The End, but I'll make sure to add it to my reading list. I've always got time for Ennis' Punisher stories. I've been getting into the Punisher comics more and more ever since he was announced as the villain in DD s2. The closest I've read to a final story for Frank – although it wasn't part of The End line – was Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe, which is an amusing tale where he annihilates every other superhero until only he and Daredevil remain.

I seem to recall you once saying that you weren't mad on Paul Levitz's 'Only Legends Live Forever!' (Adventures Comics Vol 1 #461-462, February-April 1979) colors, but I've got a lot of affection for that story. It's not merely a 'what if' tale, but a canonical conclusion to the original Golden Age Batman's adventures. If nothing else, I admire the finality of it. If they did that storyline nowadays, he'd be back from the dead within a year. I also dig the idea of Batman being taken out by a lowlife thug like Bill Jensen, rather than an A-list adversary such as Darkseid. It's not an especially epic story, and the quality of writing and art aren't anything to write home about. I suppose it's the boldness and permanence of the tale that make it special for me. Or maybe I'm just so fatigued with overblown 'event' storylines that I appreciate Levitz wrapping the whole thing up in just two issues.

Regarding End of Days, I sure hope that's not how DD finally checks out in the 616 canon. I don't mind that death in the context of that particular storyline, but I wouldn't want it carrying through into the mainstream comics. I don't know how I imagine Daredevil's career ending. The two most obvious options would be to have him go down fighting like in End of Days, or just keep on going indefinitely. But if it was to be his final story, I think I'd rather see Matt achieve some level of inner peace that's been hitherto absent from his life. Perhaps his last adventure could revolve around his radar sense deteriorating. He knows he hasn't got much time left before he loses his extrasensory powers altogether, so he embarks on one final mission to put his affairs in order and settle old scores. Then at the end of the story he basically becomes an ordinary blind man and settles down into a peaceful retirement, confident in the knowledge his mission is finished and he's earned a rest. I'd find that preferable to having Bullseye ram a billy club through his skull.

[thecolorsblend]

I like thinking of it that these characters all have a The End point somewhere in their biographies. Thinking about their conclusions is kind of fun.

Spider-Man is going out in a blaze of glory. I think Ultimate Spider-Man pretty much nailed how Peter Parker will die. And the idea of Uncle Ben personally welcoming him to his reward is heartwarming. Because in its own way, it kind of is a happy ending.

Superman is here to guide mankind. "Build a better world, Kal." The day will come centuries from now when his work is finished and there's nothing more he can offer humanity. His contemporaries are all long dead so he'll leave Earth in a DC One Million style to explore the cosmos.

Somewhere in his late 40's or early 50's, Batman will experience what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. He'll realize his parents' deaths weren't his fault. He'll make peace with their memory, give up crimefighting, marry Selina (or somebody) and move away from Gotham forever. Tim becomes the new Batman. It's Tim's destiny.

Wally West will always be sought by the Speed Force. And someday, he'll reach a moment of zen insight and understand what the Speed Force always wanted from him. He'll allow himself to be absorbed by the Speed Force... and then he'll be returned to Earth to serve as a sort of a sentient manifestation of the Speed Force. His time as a human is over... but he still maintains some of his humanity.

The Punisher... honestly, if there's a better ending for him than The End, I don't know what it is. That's dark, gritty, bitter and perfect for the Punisher. Because in a weird kind of way, he'll have succeeded in his mission. And only the reader will understand just how fatalistic his mission always was.

I always figured the day would come when Tony Stark moved to Asgard rather than pass away. Odin (or somebody) simply would not allow someone as brilliant as Stark to die of old age. So Odin would put aside his own vanity and invite Stark to live with him and his family for all eternity. Stark, being in his upper 50's and not quite as full of beans as he used to be, will go along with it, viewing it as an eternal retirement.

I always imagined a sort of Reservoir Dogs-lite ending for the Fantastic Four. Sooner or later, Doom will succeed in killing Reed Richards. The law of averages just demands it. And when that happens, Doom isn't long for this world. If he doesn't die by his own hand, he'll die by Ben Grimm's hand Ultimatum-style. No flowery monologues, no "epic showdowns". Nothing fancy. Just the Thing squashing Doom like a grape.

Wonder Woman will eventually have her fill of man's world, I think. Yes she's a warrior, first. And yes, she's also a diplomat. But she's accustomed to genuine improvement and, in the short term, I don't see much job satisfaction from her. So I think she'd move back to Themyscira and probably stay there until news of the utopia Superman has built reaches the Amazons.

I could picture Nightwing eventually realizing he's just too old to continue. After that, there's no big mystery to it. He'd marry Babs, settle down and try to enjoy the remainder of his life in a quiet retirement. Bruce's own decision to retire may help him make his decision.

Jack Knight's decision to quit being Starman and move away from Opal City to raise a family was so pitch-perfect that there's no way to improve on that.

The list goes on but that's enough for now.

[Silver Nemesis]

Barry Allen would be a tricky character to conclude on account of his existence generating and sustaining the Speed Force. Perhaps he could achieve a form of immortality by converting himself into pure energy, or else Thawne could trap him in a temporal loop so he never ages or dies. Or Maybe Barry should die, thereby ending both the Speed Force and Negative Speed Force at the same time.

I could see Katar Hol retire from crime fighting to pursue a career in politics on Thanagar. He could commit his autumn years to remedying the social inequalities that had once preoccupied his father, Paran. If Shayera's temperament mellowed with age, she could go along too and help protect him against assassination attempts.

The idea of Banner dying and progressing to a peaceful afterlife while the Hulk rages on – as suggested in Hulk: The End – is pretty much the perfect conclusion to their story. Banner deserves peace, but the Hulk can never attain true harmony. He almost did back on Sakaar, but fate just wouldn't give him a break. I imagine the Hulk, once free of Banner's humanity, becoming more and more enraged until eventually he turns into a giant gamma bomb a trillion times more powerful than the one that created him. There could be a twist at the end where he detonates in a seemingly unpopulated star system, only for the resultant outflow of gamma radiation to contaminate microscopic organisms and cause them to evolve into a race of Hulk-like monsters.

Joker has to die. There's no two ways about it. And I've always thought Gordon should be the one to finally kill him as payback for what he did to Barbara and Sarah.

Likewise Bullseye should eventually be killed. Elektra's probably the best candidate to take him out.

With Typhoid Mary, it would be fascinating to see the boundaries separating her different personalities break down so they all merge into a single gestalt. Eventually I imagine the Mary side of her would be unable to coexist with Typhoid and Bloody Mary, and so she'd probably end up committing suicide through pyrokinetic self-immolation.

With Lex Luthor, I can envisage a scenario where he's sequestered in some private super max and commits himself to curing every major disease known to man. Then, out of pure spite, he destroys his notes and commits suicide without sharing the fruits of his research with the rest of humanity. This would be his final parting shot at Superman.

Judge Dredd represents an interesting problem, being perhaps the only comic book hero who actually ages in real time. He was in his twenties when he first debuted in 1977. Forty years on, he's now pushing seventy. One day he'll be killed or will take the Long Walk and be replaced by a younger clone. Either that or they'll prolong his life by turning him into a cyborg. But one way or another, there will always be a Judge Dredd patrolling Mega-City One. There's no cushy retirement on the horizon for that guy.

[thecolorsblend]

This seems like the best place for this.

Just finished reading Last Rites from Daredevil v1 #297-#300. It's basically the inverse of Born Again in some ways inasmuch as Murdock destroys the Kingpin. It's not quite as systematic (or operatic) as Fisk's attacks on him during Born Again. But it's basically a reckoning between the two characters.

I enjoyed it a lot... although Karen annoyed the hell out of me. But apart from her, I enjoyed it. The part that works for me is how cold and methodical Murdock was in taking Fisk out. Murdock is a lawyer, obviously, so he used the legal system to dismantle Fisk and his whole operation.

Murdock is cold and calculating through the whole thing. He could give Michael Corleone lessons... right up until the instant he's reinstated as a lawyer. And then he's wracked with guilt. Yeah, Fisk is a major league scumbag. No two ways about it. But Murdock is still a basically decent guy and his conscience won't rest easy over what he had to do in order to take Fisk down.

Because ultimately it wasn't about the heroic Daredevil defeating the villainous Kingpin. It was about Murdock taking revenge on Wilson Fisk, the man who had done so much to hurt him. It was personal. Murdock hates Fisk. This wasn't an act of righteousness. It was vengeance, pure and simple. And that's a different thing.

It's a truth about which Murdock has no illusions by the last page of the story. Yeah, he did the right thing. But he did it for all the wrong reasons. And that haunts him.

Great story! I know Chichester isn't universally beloved but this was a great story and about as good a sequel to Born Again as you're likely to find.

[Silver Nemesis]

Just finished reading Last Rites from Daredevil v1 #297-#300. It's basically the inverse of Born Again in some ways inasmuch as Murdock destroys the Kingpin. It's not quite as systematic (or operatic) as Fisk's attacks on him during Born Again. But it's basically a reckoning between the two characters.

'Last Rites' is terrific. As you say, it makes for a great sequel to Born Again. But it's also a superb Kingpin story. Chichester was the first writer to really delve into Fisk's background and flesh him out as a human being. If it wasn't for this book, we wouldn't have got the excellent TV episode 'Shadows in the Glass'. It forms a neat trilogy with Born Again and Ann Nocenti's Typhoid Mary arc.

Daredevil's a character who takes more than his fair share of beatings in life, so it's always rewarding to see him say 'enough' and start fighting back. The Fall of the Kingpin arc is a classic example of this. So is Bendis' Hardcore storyline. When Matt retaliates, he doesn't do it in half measures. He soundly owns his enemies and leaves them with scars to remember him by.

Because ultimately it wasn't about the heroic Daredevil defeating the villainous Kingpin. It was about Murdock taking revenge on Wilson Fisk, the man who had done so much to hurt him. It was personal. Murdock hates Fisk. This wasn't an act of righteousness. It was vengeance, pure and simple. And that's a different thing.

It's a truth about which Murdock has no illusions by the last page of the story. Yeah, he did the right thing. But he did it for all the wrong reasons. And that haunts him.

For me, this highlights one of Daredevil's most intriguing characteristics – his willingness to violate (within certain boundaries) his own highly developed sense of right and wrong. Other characters may confuse justice with revenge, but Matt's shrewd enough to know the difference. And if he pursues the latter over the former, his conscience will make him pay for it later.

Going off topic a bit now, but I was thinking the other day that Jack Murdock is one of the most underrated characters in the Marvel mythos. Most superheroes lose a parent figure early in their life, but the majority of those parents are portrayed as idealised saints. Thomas Wayne, Ben Parker, Nora Allen, etc. The great thing about Jack was that he wasn't a saint. He was a leg breaker. A drinker. A thug. He even lashed out at his own kid on one occasion.

But despite all that, Jack was a good man. A very good man, in fact. Whenever he did wrong, his conscience suffered because of it.

But he did bad things anyway because he believed it was serving a greater good: namely providing Matt with a better future. Matt breaks the law as a vigilante because he too believes he is serving a greater good. But both men have their limits. Jack refused to throw a fight, while Matt refuses to kill his enemies. Both men bend the rules, but both remain inescapably tethered to their core moral values. There are certain lines they won't cross, even at the expense of their own lives.

Dying the way he did, Jack taught his son the value of making sacrifices for one's principles. It was also from Jack that Matt learned to respect the importance of rules, and by extension the law.

It was from Jack he learned the basic tenets of right and wrong. And it was from Jack he inherited his paradoxical nature. Stick may have taught Matt his skills, but it was Jack who instilled in him his values.

The paradoxical part is the most interesting to me. How can someone who habitually breaks the law also respect the law? A character like Harvey Dent is an interesting counterpoint here, because Dent initially believed in the law only to lose that belief when he became Two-Face. But Matt is not disillusioned with the justice system. He's committed his life to serving it. If someone holds the law in such high esteem, but consciously breaks it anyway, what kind of a toll does that take on that person's conscience?

Most late lamented mentors teach the hero lessons through pithy sayings ("With great power...") or through the example they set with their own saintly behaviour. Jack taught Matt through the example of his own failures. He showed his son what a man should be, as well as what he shouldn't be. A very interesting character.

Great story! I know Chichester isn't universally beloved but this was a great story and about as good a sequel to Born Again as you're likely to find.

The hatred for Chichester mostly stems from his later stories. I've got to admit, I really like his run for purely nostalgic reasons. It was round about that time I first started reading Daredevil comics as a child. I have particularly fond memories of the whole 'Fall from Grace' storyline. I remember the glow-in-the-dark card covers on some of the original issues. I re-read the whole thing a few years ago when it was reissued as part of the Epic Collection and... it wasn't as good as I remembered. But I still like it. If nothing else, Scott McDaniel's artwork looks great.

I've got a theory that a lot of the resentment towards Chichester comes from him rehashing some of the sillier storylines from the Silver Age. The Silver Age Daredevil notoriously adopted the fake persona of Mike Murdock, while Chichester's Matt created the false persona of Jack Batlin. The Silver Age Daredevil faked his own death on no less than two separate occasions (firstly in Daredevil Vol 1 #41, then a second time in Daredevil Vol 1 #54), while Chichester's Matt faked his death in Daredevil Vol 1 #325. These storylines worked really well back in the sixties, but not so well in the nineties. Chichester's nineties Daredevil stories also have a rather dated cyberpunk feel to them that was typical of Marvel's Liefeldian 'extreme' approach throughout that decade. Like Diggle, I think his tenure also suffers from the fact it followed a vastly superior run: namely the Nocenti/Romita Jr era.

But I think most fans would agree his 'Last Rites' storyline was awesome.