Marvel's Daredevil (Netflix)

[Silver Nemesis]

Tl;dr version: it's awesome. Probably the best season yet, though that might be post-release hype talking. But the series as a whole is the best dark/serious superhero adaptation ever in my humble, irrelevant and unworthy opinion.

Right now I'd rate the seasons as follows:

Season 1    9/10
Season 2    8.5/10
Season 3    9.5/10

And for The Defenders, maybe a 6.5/10

[Silver Nemesis]

Charlie Cox and Deborah Ann Woll explain the Daredevil/TMNT connection to Wilson Bethel.

And here's a recent Facebook Live chat session with Charlie. It contains some mild spoiler talk about fight scenes from season 3, so it's best not to watch it until you've finished all 13 episodes.

[The Laughing Fish]

I binge watched the entire season over the weekend. While Season 1 remains my favourite, I give Season 3 a big thumbs up and is more consistent in quality than Season 2. Some SPOILERS below:


I loved how Wilson Fisk came back with a vengeance as he exerts his influence and manipulates the FBI in order to take control of the city. Even more so, I loved how Matt Murdock's morals were put to the test this season. It looked like he was beginning to understand Frank Castle's perspective when he was seriously contemplating killing Fisk, but eventually, Matt saved the day without spilling blood on his hands. But he has learned to become very cunning, as you can see in how he uses the truth to turn Poindexter against Fisk.

The season does end on a somewhat stereotypically happy ending, but focusing only on that totally ignores the personal tragedies along the way. The sacrifices made by Agent Nadeem to expose the conspiracy, Father Lanthom saving Karen Page, Karen's devastating backstory in being responsible for the accidental of her brother and her struggles in dealing with her guilt since, the bittersweet reunion between Fisk and Vanessa, the moral conundrum behind Sister Maggie that secret from Matt, and Matt haunted by his own demons throughout. The fact that he overcame his temptations to kill by compromising a deal with Fisk to end the violence is a triumph in itself.

I haven't always liked everything Netflix has done concerning Daredevil, but the character arcs for Matt Murdock and the supporting characters have been excellent. Long it may continue in Season 4.

But one little piece of observation I'd like to make: Fisk this season was meant to reflect Donald Trump.There were too many obvious moments to ignore i.e. the news over Fisk getting released from prison being dismissed as fake news by Agent Nadeem, and Fisk dismissing allegations at a press conference.

[Silver Nemesis]

Apparently Roy Thomas made a cameo in season 3 as one of the prison inmates.

He's written a detailed account of the experience here: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/11/01/roy-thomas-cameo-marvel-daredevil-season-3/

This part is particularly interesting, where he gives his opinion on how successfully he thinks the show has adapted the comics:

Instead—but this was certainly not a disappointment—I was introduced to Charlie Cox, who plays Daredevil/Matt Murdock. Having been impressed by his work on the first two seasons, and in The Defenders, it was a distinct pleasure to meet him. I figured he'd just shake my hand and hurry off, but he had a few free minutes, and we had a chat about the show. I've been in a situation or two where I've had to fake my feelings about a movie or TV show.

In this case, I could truthfully tell Charlie how, as a former writer and later editor of Daredevil (and as a reader of the comic from its 1964 debut), I thought he and the cast and the show had all captured just the right feeling. Sure, it's more of a Frank Miller Daredevil than a Stan Lee/Roy Thomas one, but that's what they were trying to do... and as far as I was concerned, they'd done it. Karen, Foggy, The Kingpin, Stick... all excellent. Plus that wonderful extended-shot fight scene in the first season, which had lasted two harrowing minutes onscreen, and which all concerned were quite proud of. They'd followed that up with another extended battle in the second season... and I learned that January day that one of the other sequences that would be filmed at the prison, although probably not scheduled to be shot that very day, would be a really extended fight scene, throughout level after level of the building. It was going to be by far the longest of the three—the projected running-time I heard was twelve minutes! I figured it would be sensational.

I found Charlie Cox a genuinely friendly guy... either that, or he's an even better actor than I gave him credit for. I didn't realize at the time that I'd seen him before in TV series like Downton Abbey nd Boardwalk Empire... but I did notice that he had a British accent (he's part English, part Irish, and part Scottish, apparently) when he wasn't playing an American attorney and a masked super-hero. For his part, he seemed pleased that a guy who'd written the Daredevil comic liked the show and wasn't worried about any inconsistencies between comicbook and TV. He said he hadn't been aware of the comics before landing the role of Murdock/DD, but that he'd read a mound of them since to familiarize himself with DD's world. He half-joked that he figured that, if The Defenders had a leader, it would be Daredevil. I told him I totally agreed with him... which I did.

[Silver Nemesis]

Oh my God...

'Daredevil' Canceled By Netflix After 3 Seasons

https://deadline.com/2018/11/daredevil-canceled-netflix-3-seasons-1202511521/

[The Laughing Fish]

 

Oh go and get f***ed.

Worst news I've heard all day. I was afraid this would happen after the rumours I've heard.

Marvel Netflix is dying a slow, painful death. What a shame.

[The Laughing Fish]

Taken from the Deadline article:

However, unlike Iron Fist or Luke Cage, the door seems to be wide open for the blind protector of NYC's Hell's Kitchen, perhaps on the upcoming Disney+ streaming platform.

"While the series on Netflix has ended, the three existing seasons will remain on the service for years to come, while the Daredevil character will live on in future projects for Marvel,"Netflix said also.

But when a fan asked this TV critic from Rolling Stone magazine if any of the cancelled Marvel Netflix can be relaunched onto Disney's new streaming service, the feedback is extremely disappointing.

The execs have already said they don't want these shows on the Disney service. And even if they did, the nature of the contracts would make it virtually impossible. They're done.

I should clarify. The Marvel shows for Disney+ are being produced by Marvel movie execs, who do not like or get along with the Marvel TV execs who made Dardevil et al. Technically, they COULD make a Luke Cage show a few years down the line. They just don't want to.

And if they did, they'd be starting over from scratch creatively, like Sony ditching the Andrew Garfield movies for Tom Holland as Spider-Man.

Source: https://twitter.com/sepinwall/status/1068324396513837058

If Alan Sepinwall is telling the truth in the quotes above, it only goes to show that the Marvel Netflix brand was never really part of the MCU like many fans believed, and the likelihood of restoring a show like Daredevil in its current tone, format and cast is nil. To that, I say good luck to Marvel/Disney trying to find another actor who can match Vincent D'Onofrio's caliber as Wilson Fisk, or match the pain and intensity Charlie Cox brought into the role as Matt Murdock. We'll probably get that awesome team-up of Daredevil exchanging quips with Tom Holland's Spider-Man and make pop culture references together!...ugh...

Sam Ernst, who was the co-executive producer on the show, tweeted this:

Man, so weird to be in the Daredevil writers room today, getting the news that we're cancelled.  On the walls were an entire season 4 laid out - and it was so f***g cool.  So many moments we wanted the fans to see...  Sigh, this business.

Source: https://twitter.com/havensam/status/1068350428687912960

This tweet really annoys me. I feel robbed, just like every time Jay Oliva and Zack Snyder reveal what the original plans were for the DCEU's future.

It's sad, but but let's continue to cherish Daredevil as the terrific show as it is. Aside from my gripes about the second season, it's still the greatest comic book TV show ever made, in my opinion.

[Silver Nemesis]

I am indescribably butthurt over the cancellation of this show. I'm still in a state of shock. I feel as though I've just learned the woman I love has died... and then subsequently learned that she's not really dead, but has instead absconded with all my money and fled to Tahiti with the pool boy. Netflix just cancelled the greatest superhero TV show ever. In the long history of dumb moves, this ranks as one of the dumbest. I hope they suffer mass account deactivations as a result of this.

Marvel issued the following statement yesterday:

Marvel is extremely grateful to the huge audience that loved Marvel's Daredevil. From the moment of young Matt's first act of heroism to the birth of Page, Murdock, & Nelson, it has been a unbelievable journey. We are incredibly proud of the amazing showrunners and writers starting with Drew Goddard and Steven DeKnight, Marco Ramirez and Doug Petrie and Erik Oleson, Charlie Cox, Deborah Ann Woll, Elden Henson, Vincent D'Onofrio and our casts who brought our characters to life with such excellence, and every one of the fantastic crews in NYC. We look forward to more adventures with the Man without Fear in the future.

This implies there might still be hope for the Charlie Cox Daredevil. But I fear those hopes are slim at best.

As I understand it, Netflix owns the first three seasons and intends to continue hosting them on their streaming service. So those episodes won't be 'moving' to another platform. However it is feasible that Marvel could create a follow-up series with the same cast and crew on another service or network. Disney currently owns a large share in Hulu (which streams the MCU series Runaways) and will gain a majority share if they purchase Fox. If Disney buys Fox, they'll also get FX (which hosts the X-Men series Legion). FX allows mature content, so that might be the best place for Daredevil to go if the series is to continue in its current tone and format. Another possibility is that Marvel might make a new Daredevil series for the upcoming Disney+ streaming service, but that would entail toning the content down to a family-friendly level. And previous reports have indicated the Marvel Netflix shows aren't welcome on Disney+ anyway, so this seems unlikely.

Yet another possibility, and perhaps the most probable, is that we're in for a cinematic reboot. This would involve Marvel relegating the Netflix shows to their own pocket universe; some kind of alternate reality spun off from the Phase One films, but disconnected from everything that came afterwards. That would be incredibly disrespectful to the fans, not to mention the cast and crew. But it's a very real possibility. What should we expect from a cinematic reboot? Probably a lighter, more FX-driven version of Daredevil inspired by the Silver Age and Mark Waid runs. And they'll almost certainly aim for a family-friendly PG-13 tone similar to those of the other MCU films.

I wouldn't have minded something like this after the TV show had run its course, but I resent the series being cancelled prematurely in favour of such a project. The Netflix 13-episode TV-MA format was perfect for Daredevil. It didn't work well for Iron Fist, but IMO it was the best possible way they could have adapted the Daredevil comics. Anything that deviates from that format, whether it's a TV-14 series or a feature film, is going to feel inferior.

That said, if there is a reboot coming then I'm going to try and be open-minded about it. But it's going to be very difficult to accept anyone other than Charlie in the role. Obviously someone else will play Daredevil eventually, but right now it should be him. It would be different if he declined to reprise the role, like Keaton did in 1995, or if he was simply too old for the part, like West was in 1989. But that's not the case here. Cox is still young and in his prime. He's a graduate of the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School (the same prestigious drama school that produced Daniel Day-Lewis, Patrick Stewart and Jeremy Irons) and is a damn near perfect physical match for the Matt Murdock in the comics. In the most recent season he was executing far more challenging fighting moves and complex choreography than anything any of the Batman actors ever attempted.

In addition to this, he's shown tremendous commitment and enthusiasm for the role. Here he is visiting a school for the blind in New York where he gave out free Funko Pop! Daredevil toys.

And here he is with some young fans.

This guy is Matt Murdock. I want to be open-minded about a potential reboot, but I'm not sure I'll be able to accept anyone else in the role knowing that Marvel already had the perfect actor and discarded him. Same goes for D'Onofrio as Kingpin. He's made the part his own and I can't imagine anyone else doing justice to Fisk the way he did. Once again, if they were recasting the role 20 years from now then I'd be open to seeing someone else play Kingpin. But right now we have the perfect actor, and if he's willing to reprise the role then it makes sense to use him.

Ideally I would have liked at least two more seasons with Charlie and Vincent, and then maybe follow those up with a trilogy of movies. But since we're not likely to get that now, here are eight predictions for things that I think could/would have happened in season 4. This is going to contain spoilers for season 3, but since the show's now been out for over a month I won't bother marking them in white.

1)  MR FEAR

Being the next rogue down on the villain hierarchy, the Larry Cranston version of Mr Fear would have been the logical pick for the central antagonist in season 4. I can imagine a Netflix version of Cranston being portrayed as a mob lawyer who poisons his enemies with fear toxin in order to manipulate, terrorise or discredit them. Ed Brubaker's Without Fear storyline would have offered good material for the plot.

2) MORE COURTROOM DRAMA

I get the feeling season 4 might have played up the courtroom aspect of the show even more than the first three seasons did. This is another reason why it would make sense to have an evil lawyer like Larry Cranston as the main villain. Season 3 ended with Nelson, Murdock and Page establishing their storefront legal practice, similar to the one Matt and Foggy had in the Bronze Age comics. I can envisage Mr Fear trying to ruin their business as they struggle to build a client list. And their first client would likely have been...


3) GLADIATOR

Melvin Potter's storyline was left up in the air at the end of season 3 and I expect Matt and Foggy would have offered their legal services to try and help him out. Matt Gerald was physically perfect for the role and did a fantastic job conveying the inharmonious balance between Potter's monstrous strength and childlike vulnerability.

The one major aspect of his psychological profile that was overlooked was his hallucinations. This was hinted at in season 1 when he talked about getting "confused", but they never outright showed it. In the TV series, they could have explained his hallucinations were a consequence of Mr Fear's toxin. Cranston could have secretly dosed Potter to make him act out violently. Mr Fear did something similar to Melvin in the comics during Brubaker's 'To the Devil, His Due' (Daredevil Vol 2 #95-99, May-September 2007), which led directly into the Without Fear storyline. Why would Cranston target Potter in the TV show? Perhaps because Potter knew more about Fisk and New York's criminal underworld than was previously thought, and thus needed to be silenced; or maybe Cranston just wanted to ruin Nelson and Murdock's defence case.


4) FOGGY'S MARRIAGE

Marci is effectively the TV show's answer to Debbie Harris, Foggy's ex-wife in the comics. I think they would have tied the knot in season 4, only for the marriage to become strained when Foggy's behaviour turned erratic as a result of his dealings with Cranston. They already adapted elements of Guardian Devil in season 3 – most notably the church fight – but it might have been a good idea to continue drawing from this story in season 4. Particularly with regards to Foggy's relationship with Marci. In Guardian Devil Foggy's relationship with Liz Allen fell apart after he cheated on her with a woman he was subsequently accused of murdering.

This happened as a result of Mysterio poisoning Foggy with an hallucinogen. I don't think he would necessarily have cheated on Marci in the TV show, but I can imagine him being manipulated by Mr Fear as part of a similar scheme to discredit him. It would also have been an interesting role reversal to have Foggy be the one acting out and Matt the one covering for him.


5) MATT AND MAGGIE

We saw flashbacks depicting a young Maggie in season 3, but there's more to that story than what was shown. It took Matt a while to finally forgive his mother for abandoning him in the comics, and it likely would have taken some time for them to fully reconcile in the TV show as well. I think they would have delved into Maggie's back story in greater depth in season 4, perhaps revealing that she'd tried to harm Matt when he was a baby owing to her postpartum depression. This would help explain why she walked out on her family. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already shot some of those flashback scenes when they were filming the flashbacks for season 3.

6) NEW SUPPORTING CHARACTERS

The deaths of Agent Nadeem and Father Lantom created vacancies in the cast list. Maybe Matt and Foggy would have taken on some new staff at their legal practice. They might have introduced Willie Lincoln, or possibly Becky Blake. Becky worked at their storefront legal clinic in the comics, and there was a story by Frank Miller (Daredevil Vol 1 #173, August 1981) in which she misidentified Melvin Potter as the assailant who put her in a wheelchair. Again, this could have tied in with the Mr Fear plot. Cranston could have tricked Becky into thinking Potter was the one who attacked her as a way of undermining Foggy and Matt's case.


7) BULLSEYE RETURNS

After that final teaser, how could they not bring him back? Bethel killed it in the role and I'm confident we would have seen him return with his reinforced skeleton and some variation of his classic comic book costume. The fact we won't get to see this is perhaps the single most frustrating aspect of the show's cancellation.

8 ) A NEW RED SUIT

A new and improved red suit was more or less guaranteed. I wish he'd got it in the season 3 finale, especially in light of the show's cancellation, but I'm sure he would have got it in season 4.


So those are some of my thoughts on the cancellation. I'm struggling to see any positives in this. It's bad news, plain and simple. Marvel and Netflix created arguably the greatest dark comic book adaptation ever (certainly on television) and now they're ending it. I'm still hoping there'll be some kind of a reprieve. But if this really is the end of the line for this version of Daredevil, then at least we got to see him in 39 episodes of his solo series, plus 8 episodes of The Defenders and a cameo in the Jessica Jones season 1 prequel comic. I've got a lot of happy memories of this incarnation of The Man Without Fear, and I won't be forgetting them any time soon.

And in keeping with my tradition of using Agent Cooper 'thumbs up' GIFs, here's one just for you Netflix.

[The Laughing Fish]

A month ago, I remember Screen Rant reporting the show was losing viewership by more than half of what it had earned in the second season. It's because of this speculation I started to notice rumours the show risked cancellation, which ended up being true.

Netflix considers their viewing figures to be a closely-guarded secret. In the absence of firm data, though, certain analytics companies have stepped forward to offer unique insight into the popularity of various Netflix series. Screen Rant has spoken exclusively to Jumpshot, a San Francisco-based analytics company. Their anonymized global panel tracks five billion actions a day across 100 million devices to deliver insights into online consumer behavior. They've been monitoring the Netflix Originals since 2016, looking at the viewing behavior and activity of their US members. While Jumpshot's data does have limitations - most notably that this only covers US audiences - it does still give a sense of just what's going on with the Marvel Netflix shows. Early this week we reported that Iron Fist and Luke Cage's second seasons suffered a massive drop in viewership, now we look at the Devil of Hell's Kitchen

According to Jumpshot, Daredevil season 2 is still the most-watched Marvel Netflix series since 2016. Season 3 hasn't fared as well; when Jumpshot compared the first weeks of the two seasons, they found viewership had dropped by 57 percent. The first week is a critical period for the Marvel Netflix shows (and, indeed, for all Netflix Originals). The bulk of views happen within that first-week window, with a steep drop over the next month or so to a background level.

Source: https://screenrant.com/daredevil-season-3-ratings-viewers-down-season-2/

Maybe there's more to the story than a simple falling out between Disney and Netflix? Could it be that Daredevil was a cost cutting casualty, because it was too expensive to produce, among other reasons? Who knows.

[thecolorsblend]

EDITS- Minor corrections for posting after drinking too much bourbon.

Sorry for my late contributions to this discussion but only finished the season a few hours ago.

Season 01 holds a special place in my heart. It's lean, mean, all business and incredibly busy establishing the tone, style and visual language of this series. Cox is always gold but, again, for some reason the first season has a special value for me. I can't even fully articulate some of it.

That said, I have to agree with SN that season 03 could be the best of the show's run. In total, this is an otherwise brilliant show with a fair-to-middlin' sophomore season. And since Defenders is kind of like season 02.5, I'll go ahead and say Defenders is a notch or two better than the second season. They're all good; just saying season 02 isn't quite to the same level as the rest.

Near the end of this season, Karen had somewhat worn out her welcome with me. Now seemed like a good time to send her off. It's tempting to say that she created a lot of unnecessary trouble this season and, ultimately, made things a lot harder than they really needed to be for everybody else. Killing Lantom HURT.

But killing Lantom in light of Karen's virtual obsolescence was salt in the wound.

Still, small matters. In the big scheme of things, Daredevil and Kingpin arrive at the same strange detente that persisted in the comics for decades. They both have each other over a barrel. So, under the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction, they have no choice but to stay away from each other's sensitive areas.

But the TV show sweetens the pot by making Vanessa, Foggy and Karen collateral damage. It's not JUST about Daredevil and Kingpin at this point. If either side makes moves against the other's loved ones, all bets are off. And it really is war.

I love this dynamic between Kingpin and Daredevil in the comics because it forces both characters to compromise somewhat. Considering the varying levels of importance that each character attaches to eastern philosophical concepts, the fact that they are living out part of the thematic structure of the yin-yang is fitting. It's not a quite perfect synthesis of yin-yang but it's really good.

Dex. You know, Bullseye is one of those characters in the comics that I always enjoyed but wasn't especially invested in. I recognize the value and historic importance of Miller's run. But when it comes to sheer pound-for-pound enjoyment, I personally enjoy the Bendis and Brubaker runs that tiny bit more than Miller's work. And a big part of that is Bullseye, I think. My overall lesser attachment to him probably affected my enjoyment of the Bullseye elements of Miller's run.

Season 03 gave me a much deeper appreciation for Bullseye. The buzzing sound effects when he's REALLY unbalanced help drive home how off his rocker the guy really is. I also adored the pseudo-secret identity (secret identities?) he uses. There's Dex, the upstanding war hero turned FBI agent. There's Benjamin Poindexter, stalker par excellence and all around weirdo. And then there's the proto-Bullseye, the unrepentant killer who enjoys murder because it's one of the few things he's really good at.

How can somebody not enjoy Dex's fights with Daredevil? In this show, Daredevil is an all but unstoppable fighting machine. He may get hurt bad in a fight but he generally wins. Dex was more than a match for Daredevil. Matt's genuine fear of Dex because of his deadly aim and fighting proficiency really helped sell the threat. Dex isn't some random street thug. He's probably the most all-around dangerous human fighter Daredevil has ever traded shots with.

One trap that some writers fall into is giving Daredevil and Bullseye too many of the same basic talents. Bullseye has perfect aim. And very often, Daredevil is shown to have something similar, for who knows what reason. Daredevil's nigh-superhuman hearing gives him amazing balance... and sometimes Bullseye is shown to have incredible balance as well.

The third season never forgets that Bullseye has certain skills that Daredevil can't quite match. But the same is true in reverse. So Dex has every possible reason to "fight" Daredevil from afar while Daredevil has every possible reason to fight up-close as much as he can. It makes each character a serious threat to the other.

I love the previous seasons but, yeah, I think the third season is probably the champ. The black uniform works for me in that it symbolizes Murdock's rejection (however temporary) of the ideals the red uniform represents.

Probably the best element for me was Murdock's determination to whack Fisk after the death of Nadeen. Foggy realized Matt only needed time to get his head back on straight. When push comes to shove, When the chips are down, Matt can never bring himself to actually go through with it. But in the moment, when he says he's out for blood, he truly MEANS it. Foggy's efforts to slow Matt down probably saved Fisk's life... and possibly Matt's soul.

Another amazing thing is Vanessa. She was a passive spectator in the first season. Everybody pretended she didn't know the full extent of Fisk's horrors. But she has an imagination. And obviously, Fisk's darkness isn't repellent to her at all. At one point, she orders somebody's death AND FISK'S MEN OBEY HER AS IF THE ORDER CAME FROM FISK HIMSELF.

In that scene, D'Onofrio makes a face along the lines of seeing Vanessa in a whole new light. Does Fisk now consider Vanessa a potential threat? His expression suggested that the wheels were turning for him. Could there ever be circumstances where Vanessa might become dangerous to him?

Of course, we'll probably never know. It's unlikely we'll ever see a continuation of the Netflixverse. This is truly heartbreaking. Daredevil fans don't have much we can point to in live action as valid and complete representations of Daredevil. The 2003 film simply has too many problems and flaws to ever be definitive. But the Netflix show, while perhaps too gunshy about the costume drama elements of the comics, is a radical improvement over everything that's come before.

And that's not just due to tone, writing or anything else. As much as anything, the cast MAKES this series. Cox, in particular, is a joy in the role. A very Maleev-like take on the character with a voice and grit that oozes Bendis all over the place. The Maleev/Bendis elements of the show in general and Cox in particular simply cannot be denied. Period.

In order for any reboot to be viable, it has to be a departure from what's come before. So that probably means saying goodbye (at least for now) to virtually everything that makes the Netflix show nigh perfect for me.

Corporate politics? Wise business decisions? That's showbiz? I have no idea what the true cause for these cancellations might be. But what I know for sure is that it's disappointing. If Netflix doesn't like the "ratings" for this show, maybe they shouldn't wait so many years between seasons.

I'm ticked off about this. There's no forgiveness to be had for this. But I'll always cherish what we got. Three and a half seasons of great Daredevil stories which finally exorcise the demons of the 2003 Johnson film from Daredevil's non-comics media legacy. If that's the only good thing to come out of all this, it was worth doing.

Disappointing but still a great ride.