Marvel's Daredevil (Netflix)

thecolorsblend · Fri, 5 Oct 2018, 21:43

Samples of Born Again, Guardian Devil, Imposter storyline, Murdock Papers and possibly Out. And maybe Return Of The King (from near the end of vol. 02's run, circa 2009 or so)?

I must say that I have a VERY positive feeling about this season. There's nothing going on in that trailer that doesn't have me psyched.

Plus, there's some context to why Matt is going back to the all-black outfit. You could see it as Matt battling Daredevil... in a sense. And that's good artillery for any story riffing on BA.

This season can't get here fast enough.

Silver Nemesis · Sat, 6 Oct 2018, 19:48

Here's a new teaser focusing on Bullseye.

This shot confirms the church scene is inspired by the massacre/fight from Guardian Devil. It's a beautiful panel recreation, only here they've inverted the final image so it's Karen cradling Matt. Kevin Smith's going to love this.

And here's an entertaining interview with Erik Oleson and the cast. A couple of spoilers are dropped here, though nothing that's likely to ruin the new season. Elden Henson reveals what Foggy's up to in season 3, but it's something I already predicted in this thread a couple of days ago, so it's nothing too shocking. What's slightly more surprising is that Oleson seemingly reveals the fate of Elektra following The Defenders. My favourite part of the interview is at the end when a fan asks Cox about the moment where he grins while pointing the gun at the Dogs of Hell in season 2. Cox responds by confirming it was a reference to the cover of Daredevil Vol 1 #184. But he doesn't just say it was based on some old cover art; he correctly cites the exact issue from memory. How many actors could do that? This guy's clearly done his revision.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 5 Oct 2018, 21:43Samples of Born Again, Guardian Devil, Imposter storyline, Murdock Papers and possibly Out. And maybe Return Of The King (from near the end of vol. 02's run, circa 2009 or so)?

I feel as though the Out storyline is the logical destination towards which this season is heading. The Guardian Devil material offers a smooth segue between Miller and Bendis, and with Matt's secret identity being compromised it's only a matter of time before the whole world knows who Daredevil is.

A part of me is sad about this, as I feel the whole secret identity thing is becoming increasingly rare in modern superhero shows and movies (how many other MCU heroes actually have secret identities?). The concept of the secret identity in general has always been one of my favourite aspects of superhero mythology. At the same time though, I think the end of season 3 would be a good place to move into the Out storyline. By then, Matt will have preserved his secret identity for 39 episodes of his own series, plus another 8 episodes of The Defenders. That's 47 1-hour episodes spanning 4 years in which his secret identity remained intact. I'm happy with that. There are some great storylines from the comics that they can only tackle once his secret identity is made public, so I'm ok with them progressing in that direction now.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 5 Oct 2018, 21:43I must say that I have a VERY positive feeling about this season. There's nothing going on in that trailer that doesn't have me psyched.

Same here. It looks as if they're taking the show in precisely the direction us comic fans were hoping they would.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 5 Oct 2018, 21:43Plus, there's some context to why Matt is going back to the all-black outfit. You could see it as Matt battling Daredevil... in a sense. And that's good artillery for any story riffing on BA.

Something was said in one of the interviews about how Matt has abandoned the red suit because he doesn't think he's worthy of it anymore. Born Again was a deconstruction of the character, breaking him down to his essential components and then building him back up again. And season 3 seems to be doing the same thing for the MCU Daredevil. Part of the deconstructive process involves shedding his armour and weapons and getting back to basics. The black suit symbolises a stage in that regression. But I'm confident he'll be wearing the red suit again by the end of the season.

The question is, will it be the same red suit Bullseye is wearing (which is the same design from The Defenders) or will it be a new upgraded suit?

Silver Nemesis · Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 17:15

4 days!

Note the taxi cab driving into the river – yet another scene from Born Again. Presumably this occurs after the prison fight.

thecolorsblend · Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:56

Still not seeing anything that doesn't look cool.

The Fisk/Murdock interplay that gets hyped up in that featurette is pretty legit. After Born Again but before, say, the Bendis run, there wasn't a ton of advancement with Daredevil's world. So the angle the writers began playing with was the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry. They both had the goods on each other, which forced them into a detente which they both loathed but recognized the necessity of.

Frankly, I'm not sure how (or if) that would play in the Netflix show since this kind of dramatic storytelling usually demands that one character vanquish the other sooner or later. But the rivalry in the comics was always very real, which made their occasional physical clashes all the more powerful since victory for one over the other necessarily also entails defeat.

That was one gripe I had about the 2003 Daredevil movie, in fact. I don't believe the movie did the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry any justice. And even if a sequel had been made, I don't have any reason to believe that their mutual hatred would've been faithfully depicted there either.

But we're reaching a point with comic adaptations now where there's not much on my bucketlist that hasn't been addressed to one degree or another. So maybe it shouldn't be a big shock that the Daredevil show looks like it's bringing the heat on this crucial aspect of the Daredevil mythos.

Silver Nemesis · Wed, 17 Oct 2018, 21:56

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:56The Fisk/Murdock interplay that gets hyped up in that featurette is pretty legit. After Born Again but before, say, the Bendis run, there wasn't a ton of advancement with Daredevil's world. So the angle the writers began playing with was the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry. They both had the goods on each other, which forced them into a detente which they both loathed but recognized the necessity of.

Frankly, I'm not sure how (or if) that would play in the Netflix show since this kind of dramatic storytelling usually demands that one character vanquish the other sooner or later. But the rivalry in the comics was always very real, which made their occasional physical clashes all the more powerful since victory for one over the other necessarily also entails defeat.

That's very true. I was re-reading some old nineties Daredevil comics the other day and thinking about how passive Kingpin was throughout that decade. After he got defeated in Last Rites, he spent most of the nineties living on the streets, just lurking in the background. He didn't really come back in force until he regained his fortune following the Marvel Knights re-launch.

One of the things I like about the Daredevil/Kingpin rivalry is the fact they seldom actually face each other one-on-one. I haven't bothered to count how many times they've come to blows over the years, but I'd be surprised if they'd physically fought each other more than a dozen times at most. At least in the 616 canon. But when they do fight each other in person, you know it's serious.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 19:56That was one gripe I had about the 2003 Daredevil movie, in fact. I don't believe the movie did the Kingpin/Daredevil rivalry any justice. And even if a sequel had been made, I don't have any reason to believe that their mutual hatred would've been faithfully depicted there either.

They tried intensifying the relationship between Murdock and Fisk in the 2003 movie by having Kingpin kill Jack, but that detail remains inconsequential throughout most of the film. Daredevil only finds out Fisk was responsible immediately before their showdown, which robs the climax of any substantial emotional build-up. And ultimately the fight scene with Fisk feels a bit anticlimactic after the showdown with Bullseye. They tried to cover so much of the mythology in that film that they didn't leave themselves enough space to adequately develop the Daredevil/Kingpin rivalry. But I still like the director's cut.

Incidentally, the twist about Kingpin being responsible for Jack Murdock's death is one of several things the 2003 movie borrowed from the Earth-92131 version of Daredevil that featured in Marvel's nineties animated TV shows. The Spider-Man: The Animated Series episode 'Framed' portrays Fisk as having had a hand in Jack's death.

Meanwhile here's the latest poster for season 3 along with some new images.

A little over 1 day to go!

thecolorsblend · Thu, 18 Oct 2018, 01:43

I didn't really mind the concept of Fisk killing Jack. Yeah, it's kind of contrived from a rational standpoint. But it's convenient narrative shorthand and it links the hero's origin to his quest. For a film, it's a sensible decision to make. I imagine logic along those lines figured into Burton making similar decisions in B89. But as you say, it's mostly unimportant for the bulk of the movie. The loss of Elektra was enough to propel Matt through the last portion of the film. The revelation that Kingpin killed his father could've been useful ammo for a sequel.

Perhaps.

We'll never know, obviously.

I had forgotten about the Spider-Man animated series angle though. Thanks for the reminder.

One of the better elements of season 1 (which is saying a lot all by itself) is how Matt reached a point where he said he was looking for reasons to kill Fisk... but his actions suggested that he in truth he was searching for reasons not to kill Fisk. Particularly his discussions about the matter with the priest indicate that Matt understood what killing Fisk would ultimately cost him vis a vis his soul.

Under that rubric, the character arc which has been implied for Matt this season could be seen as a retread of that season 1 arc. And yet, without the benefit of having seen the episodes, obviously, I think a nuance can be added here that in season 1, Matt believed Fisk was a clear and present danger to the city. His temptation was to kill him to end that threat permanently but he eventually found a better way. Matt's broader mission was more universal; he wanted to protect the city.

In season 3, it looks like Matt is again tempted to end Fisk permanently. The difference in this case is (1) Matt knows that Fisk is a threat and (2) part of the threat Fisk poses is now to Matt personally rather than the city generally. This gives Matt a more personal and "selfish" motive because now it's as much about self-defense as anything else.

So the temptation to kill Fisk in season 3 (assuming this is an actual subplot of the season) is superficially similar to season 1 but the nitty gritty details are quite different.

If one of the supporting characters do get killed by Fisk, it adds extra spice to Matt's urge to whack the Kingpin once and for all.

Which, when you think about it, is actually pretty freaking epic.

Silver Nemesis · Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 19:24

I finished season 3 around mid-afternoon Saturday, and I feel emotionally drained. I don't think I've ever felt so anxious watching a superhero film or TV show as I did watching this. I've got so much to say about it, but I'd rather unpack those thoughts a bit at a time over the coming weeks than do it all in one go. It's also going to take me some time to process everything properly. But for now, here are some initial reactions. As usual, I'll mark spoilers in white.

To start with, the new season fixes a couple of problems created by The Defenders. The final scene of The Defenders positioned the starting point for Daredevil season 3 smack in the middle of Born Again. But the new season manages to reposition things so as to approach that story from a more suitable angle. Overall I thought it was an excellent adaptation of Born Again. Obviously season 3 isn't just based on that one story, but it covers all the most important aspects of Miller and Mazzucchelli's saga. It's certainly the most comprehensive adaptation of any single comic story they've done so far. A lot of people, including Charlie Cox, expressed disappointment that we never got to see Karen's reaction to learning that Matt was Daredevil after season 2. (SPOILER) But season 3 addresses this problem early on in the form of a flashback. (END SPOILER) The pacing is very slow, but for some reason I don't mind that as much with Daredevil as I do with the other Marvel Netflix shows. Maybe it's because I'm more emotionally invested in these characters, or maybe it's because the supporting cast is just more interesting. Whatever the reason, the slow burn pacing works for me. But it might annoy other people.

Charlie Cox is on top form. He continues to own this role and solidifies his position as the best live action superhero of the modern era. This season looks like it was his most physically demanding, and there are plenty of fight scenes where you can clearly see him performing the elaborate choreography himself. Christian Bale did a lot of push-ups in The Dark Knight trilogy, but did he do them while performing a handstand? Cox does.

There's one particular action sequence that is filmed in a single take and lasts for about 10 minutes. It might be a record as far as television is concerned and should guarantee the stunt team an Emmy nomination. But since the Emmys seem determined to ignore this show, even to the extent of nominating Luke Cage season 1 over Daredevil season 2 for best stunt work, then I won't hold my breath.

Cox and D'Onofrio both deserve Emmy nominations too IMO. I also think Deborah Ann Woll and Joanne Whalley deserve best supporting actress nods. Woll's scene with D'Onofrio is one of the best in the entire series. And Whalley is superb. She's perfect as Maggie and many of the most emotionally-affecting moments this season were the ones between her and Matt. At one point I thought they might balk at the true nature of their relationship (SPOILER) but they didn't. I feel there's more to her backstory than was glimpsed in the flashback scenes. In the comics her postpartum depression drove her to try and hurt baby Matt, and I wonder if something similar happened here which motivated her to distance herself from her family. If so, we might get an extended flashback in season 4. Now that Lantom's dead (the most shocking and impactful death since Ben's in season 1) I'm hoping Maggie will fill his role as Matt's moral and spiritual guide. Murdock's lost three parent figures now (Jack, Stick and Lantom), but Maggie should survive the run of the series. She's still alive in the comics, and there are lots of interesting places they could go with the relationship between her and Matt. (END SPOILER) I'm looking forward to seeing this aspect of the show developed more in the next season.

Moving on to the villains, I absolutely loved the depiction of Bullseye. I'd heard rumours that the MCU version wasn't faithful to the comics, but that's utter nonsense. They incorporated a ton of things from the source material, including the final scene where (SPOILER) he gets his spine laced with metal by Kenji Oyama (aka Lord Dark Wind). Practically all of his different origin stories from the comics were referenced in the series: the loss of his parents at a young age, his childhood aptitude for killing, his time as a baseball pitcher where he killed someone by throwing a ball at their head, his time spent serving in the military, his training with a government agency, his gradual descent into criminality while outwardly still being an operative of the aforementioned government agency, his emotional weakness and abandonment issues, his unhealthy attitude towards women – all taken from the comics. The only difference here is that he worked for the FBI instead of the NSA, and that Kingpin played a role in his origins. (END SPOILER). But other than those two things – which really don't matter – he was perfectly comic accurate. His skill set was brilliantly depicted, mixing advanced CQC skills with god-tier throwing abilities and high-level durability. His personality was also spot on, blending gleeful sadistic maniac with mentally-weak manchild. In terms of Easter eggs, I noticed his apartment number was 131.

And Daredevil Vol 1 #131 is the first issue Bullseye appeared in.

I also thought there were some really funny moments with Dex: (SPOILER) like the way he kept saying "That's really hard" every time he was pretending to care about someone else's feelings; or the scene where he's working on the suicide prevention hotline and is trying to goad that one guy into killing his stepdad; or the scene in the final episode where he's driving around dressed as Daredevil with the frozen corpse of the woman he was stalking sat beside him. (END SPOILER) Bullseye in the comics is intimidating and funny at the same time, and that's also true of the MCU version. He was genuinely scary and threatening, but also made me chuckle out loud on a number of occasions. My one criticism is that (SPOILER) we never got to see him in his classic comic book costume. I feel like Kingpin's story deserves a break and Fisk should probably sit the next season out. But I want Bullseye to return as quickly as possible in season 4, and next time bring his classic costume with him. He's already developed a fondness for wearing an armoured suit, so there's adequate reason for him to get another. They could just adapt the Daredevil suit he wore in season 3; saw the horns off, paint it black and add a white target emblem to the forehead. Perfect. (END SPOILER) I've been waiting years to see a good live action version of Bullseye, and this didn't disappoint. Wilson Bethel did a fantastic job and I hope we'll be seeing more of him in the future.

One thing I didn't like about this season is (SPOILER) the fact we never get to see Matt back in the red suit. I loved the black costume in season 1 and was glad to hear it was making a return in season 3. But I was hoping he'd get back in the red costume by the finale, and unfortunately he didn't (though he may have recovered the red suit now that Bullseye's been defeated). It's reached the point where Matt has worn the black suit for more episodes than he's worn the red one. I do like the black outfit, but at this stage I think it's overstayed its welcome and should be permanently retired. (END SPOILER) Henceforth, I only want to see Daredevil in the red costume.

I've got lots more to say, but I'll leave it there for the time being. I hope other site members will finish the season soon so we can talk about it in more depth and start posting spoiler videos and pictures. One last thing I'll say for now is that season 3 has by far the best finale of any Marvel Netflix show so far. The intensity cranks up to insane levels and (SPOILER) the final three-way fight between Daredevil, Kingpin and Bullseye is an outstanding showcase of the three characters' different fighting styles. I don't think they've ever even done that match-up in the comics, and I certainly never expected to see it in the TV show. But it was beautifully executed and is tied with the church sequence as my favourite fight of the season. (END SPOILER)

Silver Nemesis · Mon, 22 Oct 2018, 17:00

Now I've had a couple of days to think about it, here are some more observations.

Plotlines focusing on police or FBI agents usually rate amongst the weaker links in these Marvel Netflix shows. Too often they feel like superfluous commentary on the main action, delivered by uninteresting peripheral characters that are connected to the central protagonists by professional ties rather than personal. I liked Ray Nadeem as a character, but some of his scenes early in the season felt like they might be falling into that familiar trap. However Ray's storyline got a lot more interesting when (SPOILER) it became apparent that Kingpin was running the FBI. At that point, Nadeem's situation became downright scary. (END SPOILER) I liked the way John Paesano's doom-laden score punctuated the hopelessness of his situation. I felt sorry for the guy and was hoping he'd find a way out of his predicament. Some of the arguments between him and his wife got a little tiresome, but they were necessary to contextualise the emotional and familial fragility that was weighing on his mind. Like the rest of the cast, Jay Ali did an excellent job. Even though his character did some questionable things, he never came across as unsympathetic.

Nadeem is the first really prominent character in the Daredevil TV series to take such a central role without being based on any one person from the comics. That said, I'd argue his storyline did draw from a couple of classic plotlines. The whole storyline about Fisk's interactions with the FBI was clearly indebted to The Murdock Papers by Bendis and Maleev, and Ray can be seen as a composite of several agents who featured in that saga. If we analyse season 3 from the perspective of it being a Born Again adaptation, then Nadeem can also be seen as filling in for Ben Urich and Nick Manolis; (SPOILER) he took Ben's role as the family man being controlled by the Kingpin and fearing for his relatives' safety (both stories feature a scene where Daredevil saves Ben/Ray's family from Fisk's assassin(s)), and he took Manolis' role as a law enforcement figure who was formerly under Fisk's control, but then tried testifying against him only to be murdered by one of Kingpin's assassins. (END SPOILER)

Moving on to Karen, I'm not sure how I feel about (SPOILER) the fact she survived. I really thought she was going to die this season, and that perhaps she ought to have done. All of her secrets have now been revealed, and most of her classic comic storylines have played out on screen (unless they're planning to do a storyline where she's tricked into thinking she has AIDS). I'm not sure where there is left to go with this character. They're into uncharted territory. But that could be a good thing. I understand them not wanting to have two seasons in a row end with Matt's love interest being killed, and having season 3 conclude on such a downbeat note would have robbed it of the spiritually-restorative climax that's essential to the themes of Born Again. It's been strongly implied in the comics that Karen was Matt's one true love, so perhaps the MCU versions will get married and enjoy the life their 616 counterparts were cruelly denied. Having Karen become the third partner in Matt and Foggy's legal practice echoes Becky Blake's storyline in the eighties (their new storefront legal service is also a nice nod to the seventies comics). Maybe from now on they'll draw from other comic characters' storylines to fuel Karen's arc. If she and Matt get married, then they could adapt elements from Milla Donovan's history (e.g. Brubaker and Lark's Without Fear). It could work. A part of me still thinks Karen should have died this season, but I'll wait and see how they follow up on this in season 4 before deciding whether or not her survival was a mistake. (END SPOILER)

I've noticed certain criticisms of the season finale getting repeated in online comments, and even in some reviews. I'd just like to quickly address those now. (SPOILER) Quite a few people are saying it made no sense for Daredevil to send Bullseye to kill Kingpin, then try to stop Dex, only to then try to kill Kingpin himself. But I thought it was pretty clear that Matt didn't send Dex to kill Fisk. Daredevil needed to know the security plans for Fisk's wedding, and he couldn't get the information out of Manning. So Matt manipulated Dex into infiltrating the wedding, neutralising the guards along the way, and then simply followed him along the most direct route to Fisk. Daredevil didn't want Bullseye to kill Kingpin anyway. He wasn't even 100% committed to killing Fisk himself at that point. Bullseye wasn't trying to kill Kingpin either – he was trying to kill Vanessa in order to pay Fisk back for having Julie murdered. I thought all of this was pretty clear, but a surprisingly large number of viewers seem to be confused about it. I've also seen some people complaining about Vanessa running upstairs after Fisk tells her to head downstairs. But she was obviously heading for the secret stairway located on the upper floor of Fisk's apartment. It makes more sense to use the secure secret escape route than the public one that's already been compromised.

Some people have complained about Matt snapping out of his depression in the final episode. But why wouldn't he? He defeated his enemy, conquered his inner demons, resisted temptation, rediscovered his faith, learned his mother is still alive, reunited with his friends and got his old life back. Matt Murdock was reborn in the finale, so why shouldn't he be happy at last? Most bizarre of all though, I've even seen some people – people who claim to be Daredevil fans – saying Matt should have killed Fisk and questioning why he didn't. I'm sorry, but anyone who still doesn't understand why Daredevil won't kill clearly doesn't get the character on the most basic level. Matt's refusal to murder Fisk in the finale was his greatest triumph of the entire season. By making that decision, he saved his own soul. If you want to see what would happen to Matt if he did kill Fisk, then check out the alternate version of Born Again from What If? Vol 2 #2 (August 1989). (END SPOILER)

To end this post, I would once again like to reiterate just how brilliant the Daredevil vs. Bullseye fight scenes were. They were as fast and brutal as I was hoping. The stunt team deserve some serious kudos for this.