would this film have worked better if it wasn't Batman?

[mrrockey]

Would this film have worked better if it was just its own little character piece about a physically deformed man trying to be accepted back into society? From watching this film, I get the sense that Burton was really just trying to make another movie about a social outcast and not much of a Batman movie. He seemed to only have a passing interest in the character, mainly in the duality of his two personas, Bruce Wayne and Batman but even that's not as well explored as I wished.

I feel if this wasn't Batman, Oswald could have been a much more interesting character since he didn't need to be portrayed as a villain from the getgo and maybe have a more GRADUAL shift to madness or heck, why not just make him not a villain at all? But since this IS Batman, we need a villain for him to fight so Burton has to make him rotten from the start so there's a threat for Batman to overcome from the start. I don't know, I just feel this movie would've just worked better if it wasn't Batman. Anyone else think so?

[Edd Grayson]

If you take Batman out of it you still have Burton's Penguin, which would be an interesting character to build a movie around, or Selina which also would've been great, but it just wouldn't have done it for me if it wasn't for Batman. I love the way he's portrayed, as the trailer suggests, the only one who can save Gotham is a creature of the night. He's almost not human when he's in costume, like a demon or a vengeful wraith.

I think the film would've worked better if it was more about Batman, but I'm pleased with what we got. Maybe it's not the best Batman movie, but it's one of my favorites of all-time.

[The Dark Knight]

The Penguin links right back to Bruce Wayne. Oswald is an orphan who came from money but grew up in a sewer, raised by a circus gang. Bruce is an orphan who came from money, still has money, and was raised by a gentleman butler.

I think a note Burton makes about Oswald is him fighting his animalistic desires. As a toddler, he feasts on the family cat. That's his pure undiluted instinct. As an adult, he's after all the poontang he can get. But if he's to be mayor, discipline is required. And he sticks to that plan. Only when the plan is jeopardised does he give in to his appetites completely.

I am fine with superhero films giving the antagonists lengthy runtime, if they are worthy, interesting characters. DeVito's Penguin is one of those beasts. Hardy's Bane is not. DeVito's character comes from misery. He wants acceptance, and gains it - but based on lies and deceit. The fact he's run out of town and dies makes it a better outcome for the character's tragic origins. Batman is an outcast as well, but a different sort.

[riddler]

the cat attacks Oswald as a baby, needless to say cats eat birds so the cat may have sensed the baby to be a bird/meal

There's been several parallels between Bruce and Oswald. Remember batmans brief conversation with Alfred saying he hopes the Penguin finds his parents. Also Sheck tells Wayne that they might have been been prep school bunkies.

Next time I watch the film (and I just did last month) I'll have to see when Batman and the Penguin become enemies. Perhaps it's Bruce suspecting Oswald runs the red triangle gang all along but why does the Penguin hatch the plan to hijack the batmobile in the first place?

[The Dark Knight]

why does the Penguin hatch the plan to hijack the batmobile in the first place?

To have the City hate Batman and love Penguin.  As soon as the mayoral elections were over, the circus gang would've stopped their street rampages. Catwoman was annoyed after being thrown into the kitty litter truck. Penguin gets the message loud and clear when Batman tells him "things change". Thus they plan to humiliate him.

[Catwoman]

it could make an amazing story without batman but it made an amazing story with him too. i know you guys are mainly focusing on the penguin but selina's story could make one kickass story......i'm going to write it.

[riddler]

it could make an amazing story without batman but it made an amazing story with him too. i know you guys are mainly focusing on the penguin but selina's story could make one kickass story......i'm going to write it.

I'm sure you could. Little trivia; Penguin is the only one of the Burton villains not to have his own comics.

[Edd Grayson]

I always thought of Batman Returns as a Batman-Penguin-Catwoman movie, all of them feel like main characters.

[riddler]

If you're curious here is the screentime by character

• Penguin 56 minutes/48.36% (21)
• Max Shreck 55.5 mins/45.94% (15)
• Selina Kyle 39.1 min / 32.37% (12)
• Batman 31.9 / 26.41% (14)
• Bruce Wayne 30 minutes/ 24.83% (14)
• Catwoman 21.6/17.88% (10)
• Alfred 9.6 minutes / 7.947% (6)

Now you'll notice that I did divide the ones with alter egos into two characters but if you combine them, Bruce/Batman does have the most screentime clocking in at just under 61.9 minutes or around 51% of the film. Selina/Catwoman garnered 60.7 minutes so she does become the #2 character in the film.

Overall it was a good balance, Batman had just as many appearances as bruce wayne and just under 2 minutes more screentime. I think the reason why this film gets a bad rap for not enough Batman is because the Penguin and Shreck carried the earlier part of the film so people probably deduced that notion halfway through the film but Batman/Bruce pretty much carries the film starting with the killing of the princess. And it's understandable why Burton did it that way; it's a sequel in which the only one of the 4 main characters which was already developed was Bruce so he pushed him into the background to develop the other 3.

The Penguin does take a back seat once he gets attacked by bats only making one more appearance in the film.

[Edd Grayson]

I think they also don't like it because Batman mostly responds to what Penguin and Catwoman are doing instead of the story being more about him. But even so, we still got some awesome scenes like Bruce seeing the Bat-signal, Batman fighting the Red Triangle Gang or the kiss with Catwoman on the rooftop, the ballroom scene, the Vichysoisse scene or Batman driving the Penguin-controlled Batmobile and the Batboat.