Batman Returns and The Comics

[Paul (ral)]

I will get right on it - .........tomorrow 

[BatmAngelus]

In rereading all of the posts with comparisons, I see the characters in the film now as (intentionally or not) being a modernized update on their Golden Age incarnations, with a mix of some of the then-recent comics of The Dark Knight Returns and Her Sister's Keeper.

And yes, I'm bumping this again for the same request.  Sorry to keep bothering you about it, raleagh, since it's a lot to add to the original feature, but it certainly helps strengthen the argument that although Burton may not have intended to follow the comics religiously, he wasn't too far off. 

[Paul (ral)]

And yes, I'm bumping this again for the same request.  Sorry to keep bothering you about it, raleagh

Don't apolgise, I'm sorry I haven't done it yet.

It's been hectic here lately.

[DocLathropBrown]

Although most of them aren't intentional in the typical sense (like Zack Snyder striving for direct recreation), it's clear that Burton has the exact same sensibilities as the people who work on Batman. That, for Batman Returns at least, more than proves his worthiness as a Batman director.

I think the references on B89 are quite intentional (to a point, he didn't try to replicate things exactly, but the '39 comics, TKJ and TDKR were definitely on his mind when he made B89). BR are much more coincidental, but I've always said that Burton was absolutely the best guy for Batman we've ever had. Nolan is fine as well, but I think that although both have the taste and sensibilities for the unusual, Burton's got the more Batmanian touch of the bizarre, and his background as an artist makes his films much more visually iconic (Like a comic book), as far as I'm concerned.

Burton is known to appreciate the absurdity of Batman (Not in a comedic sense, but it's the same absurdity that makes a comedy Batman work well). The grandiose, the comic booky. He's not afraid to be fantastic and lavish, but not in the "comics are silly" sense (that was Schumacher), but in the reverent "comics can have anything happen" sense.

Although the similarities in BR are mostly coincidental, I appreciate them on the same level as intentional references. Because of how Batmanian they end up being, it just goes to show that the guy just knows how to make a Batman movie. I don't think any lucid person can deny that it's very much a Batman movie. Not particularly representative of the modern era, but undeniably Batman, just as the 1960s series is undeniably Batman. It's comforting to know that no matter how "Burtonian" BR may be, it's still very much a Batman flick, if for nothing else, the deep subtext and psychology.

You can complain about a vicious, Sex-crazed Penguin any day. You can complain about Batman killing thugs, but below that surface of inaccuracy, it's all making a point about the psychology of the character. It's no different than a writer taking the monthly comic in a bold new direction. I would die for Burton to get a run on the monthly book (or a graphic novel) over a third film any day. There, his sensibilities would most likely be welcomed by Batfans, as opposed to hated. Just let him draw and co-write. It would be better than a third film if you ask me.

I even submit that BR would have been better if Waters/Strick hadn't gone so overboard. Burton would have settled for a script that hit his required notes, but left the sex-crazed and unnecessarily vicious Penguin on the cutting room floor. It was the major themes/ideas, not the specifics that hooked Burton. He liked what the other guys came up with, it's not like Burton was hell bent on being inaccurate (something which a lot of fans seem to think). The guys suggested things and he liked them. We could have easily gotten a Batman who didn't kill (but mortally wounded, probably) if the writers hadn't come up with it.

Burton isn't burdoned by being a rabid fanboy (and neither is Nolan). When you try to please everybody, you will fail. Fanboys can't make a good movie I feel, because they don't have a finger on what makes films work for the general populace. Most fan films feel like you're missing some vital piece of info. It's because it's made for the specific. It's not as accessable as it should be. I'm not going to get a reference to panel #13 on page 23 of Batman #256. My knowledge isn't that encyclopedic. I have a life.

Something specific like adaptation of a graphic novel (Watchmen, 300, DKR) is different, as that isn't as broad as just the monthly series. That's why I didn't dig David Goyer's work on BB. He's too much of a fanboy and his dialogue coumes off as stiff and unrealistic sounding, no matter how good the performance is giving it. His stuff sounds like what a geek assumes real people sound like. No particular insult intended toward the man, but that's how I feel.

A lot of people feel the same way about Mark Steven Johnson's work on DD and Ghost Rider. He's such a fanboy for both, most people couldn't dig them (though I did, but it's because he strikes a better balance between fanboy and film director, I think).

But anyway, I didn't mean to write an article here (I really should be doing that on my blog...), but I think Burton's work is entirely defensible, and closer to the comics than people admit (whether intentional or not).

[Paul (ral)]

The feature on the main site has been updated

http://www.batman-online.com/features/2009/1/2/possible-influences-of-comics-on-tim-burtons-batman-returns

Thanks again to BatmAngelus, thecolorsblend, greggbray, ZUPERZERO & Silver Nemesis for allowing me to post their work on the site.  The time you guys have spent researching this stuff is deepy appreciated by all of us.

[BatmAngelus]

Awesome, raleagh!  It looks great! 

[batass4880]

In what issue or year did they start to call the Catwoman "Selina Kyle"? I see her early name was Elva Barr like how the Penguin's name was Mr. Boniface at first. Also, when did they start calling him "Oswald Cobblepot"?

[BatmAngelus]

I believe the Selina Kyle name was introduced in the story "The Secret Life of Catwoman" around 1950, which is the same issue that had her origin as a stewardess who fell out of a plane, but miraculously survived.
Edit: Batman #62 is the issue number for this story.

As for Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot, the name wasn't known until Batman and Robin caught him getting a postcard from his Aunt Miranda in the 1946 comic strip story the 1001 Umbrellas of The Penguin.

[thecolorsblend]

Plus, I always assumed Mr. Boniface was just an alias the Penguin used as he wouldn't likely use his real name in the middle of a robbery.

[Kamdan]

Has anyone ever notice that Batman's handwritting on the note to The Penguin is actually Bob Kane's?