Kevin Smith's Batman Returns Commentary

[Silver Nemesis]

Someone's uploaded the whole thing to YouTube in separate videos. I'm only going to post the first part. You can select the rest of the commentary from the links at the end if you want to. But be warned, Smith really seems to hate this film. I didn't realise how much until I saw this.

[DallyWhitty]

I find Kevin Smith really obnoxious, but the masochist within me wants to watch this.

[Cobblepot4Mayor]

I expected this. Not surprised really. A film often described as "Tim Burton's Batman" (LITERALLY) is bound to get a little negative reactions here and there.

I can't help but like Kevin Smith (his experiences with Jon Peters is something of an underground classic), though I completely disagree with him on this one. Just wish he didn't swear so much. No need for it, it's offputting and irritating. You don't have to cuss to "sound cool" Kev, your a basic geek just like the rest of us. Stop fighting it lol

The problem with reviews such as this is it gives a bad rep for an otherwise great and well deserved successful film from back in the day. And there is no need for it frankly, it's just a fun movie, it's popcorn entertainment. A good one at that. It was then and it still is now. I think any kid just becoming a Batman lover would still have a blast with this. To hell with the comic book accuracies. I just hope a silly rant like this won't put them off.

Smith criticising Batman's lack of screentime in the movie is frankly now completely outdated. OUT-DATED. This argument has no validity as of 2012. NO VALIDTY. PERIOD. Prior he has a small point (though I still would never regard it a major problem, my faith rests firmly with Burton's views) but no longer. And why? Well just go and watch the far more criminally screen less Dark Knight Rises. A movie that felt like a Batman Returns tribute in more places than one can first see. A massive chunk of 40 mins before we see Bruce in costume and a grand total of two further costume changes. And that's it. It's more a Bruce Wayne film than a Batman film. Yet I bet he bleedin well loves it.

[The Dark Knight]

Smith criticising Batman's lack of screentime in the movie is frankly now completely outdated. OUT-DATED. This argument has no validity as of 2012. NO VALIDTY. PERIOD. Prior he has a small point (though I still would never regard it a major problem, my faith rests firmly with Burton's views) but no longer. And why? Well just go and watch the far more criminally screen less Dark Knight Rises. A movie that felt like a Batman Returns tribute in more places than one can first see. A massive chunk of 40 mins before we see Bruce in costume and a grand total of two further costume changes. And that's it. It's more a Bruce Wayne film than a Batman film. Yet I bet he bleedin well loves it.

Exactly. The Nolan fan has no place whatsoever to criticise lack of Burton Batman screen time, especially as of TDK Rises. Their get out of middle eastern jail without a rope card is the 'Bruce Wayne' loophole. We all know it's about the guy with the pointy ears. And his absence is a lot more noticeable in a film that runs for two and a half hours.

Yet people will continue to spout out this dribble on autopilot, because they have done so for years and years. Not realising they are now slamming their own beloved films who commit the same 'crimes' they lambast.

[The Laughing Fish]

Exactly. The Nolan fan has no place whatsoever to criticise lack of Burton Batman screen time, especially as of TDK Rises.

For what it's worth, I thought Batman had very little screen-time in Batman Begins too. I reckon that's even worse because that was supposed to be an origin story. Yet not only he does very little in that film, you can't even see him fight because the action is so horribly edited and camera shaking all over the place.

Anyway, I'll admit that Batman Returns is not really a film for everyone. It can be rather bleak, depressing and very disturbing at times, and yes, the emphasis on great character arcs for Catwoman, Penguin and even Max Schreck do feel like coming at Batman's expense. But at the same time, the emphasis on the villains and how Batman reacts to them make the film worthwhile. The ending where he desperately tries to save Catwoman from herself is bittersweet - perfectly demonstrating how tragic being Batman really is - just like in the ending of Mask of the Phantasm.

[The Dark Knight]

the emphasis on great character arcs for Catwoman, Penguin and even Max Schreck do feel like coming at Batman's expense. But at the same time, the emphasis on the villains and how Batman reacts to them make the film worthwhile.

The Penguin and Catwoman at least say something about Batman. The urban myth who steps out of the shadows and longs for his parents. The duality of Selina walking a fine line between crimefighter and criminal.

Bane's plot didn't make any sense and any connection to Batman was a blur of confusion. As far as I see, it was purely a physical superiority, but even then, just because Bruce let his company and body go to the dogs. He didn't wear Bruce down ala Knightfll.

[The Laughing Fish]

The Penguin and Catwoman at least say something about Batman. The urban myth who steps out of the shadows and longs for his parents. The duality of Selina walking a fine line between crimefighter and criminal.

Bane's plot didn't make any sense and any connection to Batman was a blur of confusion. As far as I see, it was purely a physical superiority, but even then, just because Bruce let his company and body go to the dogs. He didn't wear Bruce down ala Knightfll.

Very good point, and I agree about the Bane (lack of) comparison too. But I'll go one better by saying that Joker in TDK hardly made any connection to Batman either. It puzzles me how people like to talk about TDK being influenced by Batman and Joker's relationship in The Killing Joke. Regardless of the Joker's "multiple-choice" remark, the book did show his origins and had him trying to convince Batman that they are both products of tragic circumstances, which is why Joker tries to take a guess about Batman's tragic origins i.e "Mob killed your girlfriend? Mugger killed your brother? I bet it was something like that...why else would you dress up like a flying rodent?". In TDK unfortunately, Joker just a "a force of nature" and he is a poorer character because of it. People can say whatever they want about B89, but at least the "one-creating-the-other" theme is an intriguing idea.

[The Dark Knight]

Also forgot to mention perhaps the biggest villain of BR, Max Schreck. Bruce's dark mirror in the business world. Consistently devious and the self titled mean, twisted soul of Gotham City. He has his own interests at heart.

I can see what you mean about TDK Joker. Their version of "you made me" was indirect, being Batman's very presence. Not a direct meeting ala Axis Chemicals. At a basic level it was control/chaos, but these themes were already present without them even having to spell it out.

[Silver Nemesis]

Before this degenerates into another Nolan-bashing thread, I think I should point out that Smith dedicated an entire episode of his podcast to highlighting the plot holes in The Dark Knight Rises. His guest on this episode, Ralph Garman (who is a fan and defender of Batman Returns), was annoyed by all the flaws in TDKR and ranted about it at length during their discussion. It was recently revealed that Garman and Smith will be writing an upcoming Batman '66/Green Hornet crossover comic. So Garman's opinions can soon be added to the 'Comic Creators Comment on Tim Burton's Batman' thread. Here's the podcast.

Just wish he didn't swear so much. No need for it, it's offputting and irritating. You don't have to cuss to "sound cool" Kev, your a basic geek just like the rest of us. Stop fighting it lol

Agreed. Whenever I listen to Smith I always think of this Michelle Pfeiffer quote.

[phantom stranger]

I've always liked Smith but, yea, his critique is way over-the-top on this one. I could only make it through the first few minutes but I'll try to find time to listen to the rest.

As for what I heard:

I've actually always been a proponent of the "less is more" approach when it comes to villains but BR is an exception to the rule. For starters, it would be difficult to have Catwoman carry a movie alone without a "true" baddie also in the mix.

Unless you're taking a more avant garde approach (which WB would never allow) you're going to need someone to threaten the city in some way and Catwoman is not that type of villain.