Jack on Heath

[The Laughing Fish]

I think heath was great but ultimately I think Jack gets the nod and here's why;
-Jacks motives were clearer; I still don't know is Heaths joker a master planner or an agent of random chaos? You'd think it would take quite a bit of planning to blow up a hospital or highjack two key boats or have dent and rachel kidnapped simutaneously.

That's why I call that 'agent of chaos' excuse a load of BS - everything that Ledger's version does is calculating and meticulous. Whether he is anticipating the schoolbus to plow through the bank and killing his accomplice holding him at gunpoint, to unrealistically having a back-up plan to explode his way out of jail and take Lao with him, everything that this Joker does is based on planning.

Nicholson's Joker may not have a deep motive for his crimes, but he always came across as resembling the character like I remember in comics I read and cartoon I watched: a psychotic who takes glee in committing hideous crimes for his own amusement.

[BatmAngelus]

I really don't think we're supposed to take Joker's "Do I look like a guy with a plan?" speech any more seriously than his contradictory "Do you wanna know how I got these scars?" stories.  He's previously established as the most unreliable narrator when it comes to himself and, as all of you say, he clearly has a plan for everything he does in the movie.  In the context of that scene, he's manipulating Harvey (whether or not you buy him being able to do that is another story), so I've never interpreted the hospital scene as revealing any character insight into him so much as Joker trying to warp Harvey's sense of what's just and fair.

To me, Joker's true motives/plans are revealed by Batman in the final act.  That the madman wants to prove everyone out there can become as crazy as he is (which is exactly what he was doing, and succeeding, when talking to Harvey in the hospital and actually has nothing to do with "anarchy" or "chaos," despite his claims).  I see the TDK Joker as pretty much the Joker from The Killing Joke, but targeting all of Gotham City and not just Commissioner Gordon like in that comic.

So while the Joker's hospital speech is contradictory, I've always thought it was deliberately so.

[Edd Grayson]

I think heath was great but ultimately I think Jack gets the nod and here's why;

-Jack had the look far more down pat (not heaths fault); hair and makeup looked more similar as did Jacks purple
-Jack had more prop gadgets which are a trademark of the Joker. I know it wasn't heavily influenced by comics but him frying someone with the handshake buzzer is classic Joker.
-Jacks motives were clearer; I still don't know is Heaths joker a master planner or an agent of random chaos? You'd think it would take quite a bit of planning to blow up a hospital or highjack two key boats or have dent and rachel kidnapped simutaneously.
-Jack played the character truer to 'the clown prince of crime'. Some people are afraid of clowns, the joker is supposed to extrapolate this fear. The only time the Joker gave the persona of a clown was in the mob meeting scene.
-the laughter; heaths laugh seemed far more random as though there was a quota in place as how often he had to do it. Jack did it at the appropriate time; while he is doing something gruesome
-the vulnerability factor. Other than when he takes steroids to do so, the Joker is not a physical threat; he rarely fights unless he has weapons or it's part of a plan and when he does he gets taken down easily; killing people with his bare hands or hand knives isn't overly part of the character unless they're tied up/cuffed or being held.

Pretty much this. Take away the hype and Heath's Joker is only a pretentious anarchist who is only famous because he's calling himself Joker.

[The Dark Knight]

His plans may be mad, but to me Heath Joker does not seem like a totally unhinged guy who is an unreliable narrator. I'm positive he knows what he's saying. Such as leading the Chechen up the garden path only to have him cut up.

Jack Joker was straight up honest with people from his perspective. "I may be theatrical and maybe even a little rough" - yes, sir. Here's when his half truth comes in. "But one thing I am not, is a killer. I'm an artist."

Fighting wise, I've always thought Joker was well captured in the finale of B89.

Batman dominates him in the fight. Throws him against a bell and such and Joker, while hurt, keeps the gags flowing. Spitting out chattering teeth. Likely found humour in punching Batman's armour. Backs off from Batman to pull out glasses and makes quip. When Batman thinks it's all over, he's the one fighting for his life. And then he lends Vicki a hand.

That's why you can never underestimate him.

[riddler]

His plans may be mad, but to me Heath Joker does not seem like a totally unhinged guy who is an unreliable narrator. I'm positive he knows what he's saying. Such as leading the Chechen up the garden path only to have him cut up.

Jack Joker was straight up honest with people from his perspective. "I may be theatrical and maybe even a little rough" - yes, sir. Here's when his half truth comes in. "But one thing I am not, is a killer. I'm an artist."

Fighting wise, I've always thought Joker was well captured in the finale of B89.

Batman dominates him in the fight. Throws him against a bell and such and Joker, while hurt, keeps the gags flowing. Spitting out chattering teeth. Likely found humour in punching Batman's armour. Backs off from Batman to pull out glasses and makes quip. When Batman thinks it's all over, he's the one fighting for his life. And then he lends Vicki a hand.

That's why you can never underestimate him.

I can live with the Joker having two different stories about the scars but his characters motives were all over the place; some things took heavy planning (also see the heist at the beginning or the escape from jail), yet he indicates he has no plans and is a dog chasing cars. Also he goes both ways on whether he wants Batman dead; kills people until Batman gives up his mask then blows up the hospital due to Reese threatening to out the batman.


I am also surprised by the lack of people who bring up the obvious plot hole of the dual kidnapping of Rachel and Harvey; there's no way the Joker could know that Batman would be allowed into the police station and the time it would happen no less. Then on top of it be able to make sure one lives and the other dies. They're in a police station with police looking for Harvey and Rachel; how'd he know there were no police in the vicinity of either of them which could have been easily radioed to? If Burton had any gaping plot hole of this manner, the Nolanites would be all over it yet nobody dare questions Nolan.

[The Dark Knight]

Granted. A lot of Joker's plot in TDK relied on every single thing falling perfectly into place without deviation. Some stuff he couldn't have possibly anticipated or timed to the last second. Merging with the school buses at the start, for example. And they don't seem to mind the fact a bus has emerged from a bank wall, and thus keep driving with no worries.

The convoy sequence is quite messy, plot wise. We're told the Joker wants to kill Dent, but he purposefully aims for everything except the truck. So, ok, perhaps he doesn't want to kill him, because he's delaying it.

As he fires on Dent, Batman jumps his car in the way. Did Joker expect this to happen or something? Because we then learn he really wants Dent alive because afterwards it was planned to kidnap him to "bring him down to our level". It's hard to make sense of it all, and the old 'he's the Joker, it makes sense to him' card doesn't wash. If the Tumbler didn't jump when it did, or was a second too late, his plan is over.

Joker's whole escape plan from jail came down to taking an officer hostage. He simple would not have escaped if he was left alone in there, with the officer watching from outside of the glass. It is stupid and just would not happen. Why would you be in there with him? He doesn't need to be. How would Joker know this would happen? He wouldn't. And in reality it wouldn't.

Just how he gets large volumes of explosives stored at Gotham Hospital without anyone knowing is beyond me. I don't believe it. It may make a cool explosion on film, but that's it. If you think too deep about it, it falls apart.

Also, with Jack's Joker and the topic of honesty. I can't let this comment go by without reference:

"I'm only laughing on the outside. My smile is just skin deep. If you could see inside I'm really crying. You might join me for a weep."
He then launches into his laughter and continues with his alter-ego, burying his pain.

[The Laughing Fish]

I thought that Joker's characterization was messy, and what's worse is people reckon that it makes him deep, and it follows along the line of The Killing Joke. I disagree. I thought that the Joker in The Killing Joke was much more grounded than the one in The Dark Knight.

TKJ revolved around the Joker doing everything he can to psychologically torture Gordon, who is at no point able to take control of the traumatic situation. Joker simply believed that any sane person can be made crazy if their lives were turned upside down in a single night. While also hinting that the same thing happened to him, despite his claims of making up stories about his own past. His actions came within in limits and with reason.

In TDK though, it came to a point that it felt like he must have had psychic abilities to have things go his way, because as TDK (the user) and riddler mentioned there is no way he could have anticipated how things were turning out. That, or he benefited from atrocious writing:

[rant]
I for one can't get over how unrealistic and ludicrous that boat scene was. We go from people desperately trying to kill an accountant so the Joker wouldn't blow up a hospital in an earlier scene, to suddenly having two boats full of people - one carrying civilians and the other carrying prisoners - suddenly having the presence of mind to defy Joker by refusing to blow each other up?! Yet when we get to the third film, none of the prisoners show any signs of humanity when the truth about Dent is revealed, and instead go on a looting and killing spree after Bane releases them from jail.

[/rant]

[The Dark Knight]

I thought that Joker's characterization was messy, and what's worse is people reckon that it makes him deep, and it follows along the line of The Killing Joke. I disagree. I thought that the Joker in The Killing Joke was much more grounded than the one in The Dark Knight.

Simplicity is always deeper than 'complexity'. Seeing Jack's life before the transformation makes him more of a complete filmic character in my book. If you match up all the differences and similarities, it is interesting and valid.

I for one can't get over how unrealistic and ludicrous that boat scene was.

I always thought this scene was a wasted opportunity in relation to Two-Face. Two boats with people from different ends of the spectrum, each with a detonator. Seemed like ripe material for him.

[Azrael]

Christopher Nolan On How the Art of Francis Bacon Inspired the Look of Heath Ledger's Joker

LINK

Glad they point out the '89 connexion.

[The_Batman_of_1989]

Unrelated to my screenname (it's more a reference to my birth year; I'm definitely no Burton fanatic), I prefer Jack's Joker. I don't dislike Heath's performance or TDK, but there really wasn't any 'Joker' in his characterization, & honestly,  the inconsistency of the writing really got on my nerves. This is probably just going to end up sounding like me trashing The Dark Knight, but it isn't; as i said before, I don't resent the film. I'm just not a member of the Nolan/Ledger Cult, and here are a few reasons why (major rant about to ensue):

* "Madness is like gravity..." A cute line, except the character depicted in The Dark Knight wasn't "mad", or crazy, or anything else that would make for a good quote (or resemble The Joker character.) He was precise, calculating, and filled with nerd-rage... and not at all crazy. Jittery as hell and really, really pissed? Yes. Murderous? You bet. "Mad (as in 'a Mad Tea Party')"? No. Every one of his schemes (and long-winded speeches, for that matter) were, as many of you have pointed out, meticulously planned & executed - the work of a focused, scheming terrorist, not of a chaotic, fun-loving psycho, which you could call 'reinvention'... but it really isn't. It's just kind of ignoring the essence of the character, except for maybe a purple suit. Hell, the character they wrote for TDK was probably closer to Riddler than anything.

* Intimidation - It was as if TDK Joker's main priority was to try to scare & intimidate people rather than create chaos & disorder, despite his repeated claims. Where classic (comic book/nicholson) Joker's intimidation factor seemed to stem naturally from his grotesque appearance & unpredictability (& the fact that he actually created chaos rather than making speeches about it), TDK Joker went out of his way to be perceived as a monster with intentionally-smeared facepaint & forced cackling & growling.

* The stuff we don't see - The idea of a guy who's "crying inside" & smiles not by choice, but due to grotesque deformity (comic book/nicholson Joker), adds some depth & layering which makes the character far more interesting. Heath played him one-dimensionally: a pissed off, murderous attention whore who gives off the impression he's always been just that; nothing more, nothing less. I don't know if those embarrassing "Wanna know how I got these scars???" bits were supposed to add depth or mystery to the character, but they didn't; they were horribly written & added absolutely nothing to the movie but extra runtime (and obviously that wasn't Heath's fault, that one's on the screenwriters & Chris Nolan.)

* Meth: not even once - TDK Joker: too coke-y. or meth-y. or whatever the hell he was supposed to be on. Ritalin, maybe?

* TDK Joker's monologues praising "chaos", "anarchy" and "disorder" are ripped pretty much verbatim from The Testament of Dr. Mabuse, a 1933 German film. Again - director & screenwriters at fault here, not Heath; I just thought it was lame of them to do that.

* Heath's performance (though likeable) is one we've seen a million times before. People sh*t all over Jack for "playing himself" - & to some degree, they're right; after watching something like The Shining, i don't think Jack's Joker was all that it could have been. But when it comes down to it, the Joker he played was one-of-a-kind, done as only Jack could do him; Heath's Joker is just about everywhere when you go back & look. Alex Delarge, Hannibal Lector, Brad Dourif's character in Exorcist 3... i needn't mention the now-famous Tom Waits interview. Hell, Heath's growling, facial expressions and stringy, greasy hair were straight up Jack Torrance material (I've always found that pretty ironic.)

* "JACKS JOKER WAS TOO CAMPY" - TDK fanatics - People seem unable to distinguish his dark humor from "camp". And that's precisely where Jack excelled & Heath missed - that balance of light & dark. As silly as Jack's Joker sometimes got, my feeling is that Heath's, though nastier, was actually much sillier & less macabre (sort of like DeVito's Penguin, in a way), but it's generally hailed as being much darker & intense than it was, due to the relentlessly violent & sludgy tone of TDK. He was too heavy on the stagey artifice and cartoony affectations - the lip-licking, the growling, the Tom Waits voice - & though i like his acting very much in general & salute his dedication to his 'transformation', his performance was mostly made up of those exaggerated affectations.