Ben Affleck is Batman

[johnnygobbs]

Ultimately I thought Gough's Alfred captured the character's sarcastic, reserved personality better than Caine's. But Cain and Bale captured the characters' familial relationship more effectively than Gough and Keaton did. In many ways Schumacher struck the happy medium, conveying the warmth and love between them while preserving Alfred's sarcastic stiff-upper-lip veneer.

I do think the kitchen-set scene of Alfred relaying a story to Vicki of young Bruce falling off a horse as a child brilliantly displays the warmer, more tender side of the character, and you get a sense of some of that affection during Bruce and Alfred's Batcave scenes (i.e. "I don't wish to spend my remaining years mourning old friends....or their sons").

[Silver Nemesis]

The relationship's there, I just don't think it was as thoroughly explored as it was in Nolan's films.

[johnnygobbs]

The relationship's there, I just don't think it was as thoroughly explored as it was in Nolan's films.

Perhaps.  I think the interplay between the magnificent Michael Caine and Christian Bale was beautifully handled in TDK trilogy however, I also think Burton's more minimalist, less-is-more, approach did an equally effective job in capturing the closeness of that relationship.

[Silver Nemesis]

I agree.

Burton's approach emphasised the stoic, understated camaraderie between two men who were ill at ease verbalising their feelings. Nolan's approach emphasised a more openly intimate dynamic between two family members who were emotionally dependent on one another. Two different yet equally effective approaches to the same relationship.

[Dagenspear]

While we're discussing this, their relationship is very beautiful to me in Batman & Robin. I like it so much. Michael, I think it's safe to say for me, is the actor I compare Alfred's to. Him and Efrem Zimbalist, Jr.. They've so far been my favorite. I was working on a Batman tv series pitch, and when I was thinking about Alfred, I pretty had an image of them in my head when coming up with it. That said, I like Sean Pertwee quite a bit on Gotham. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless everyone!

[The Laughing Fish]

If we want to compare Alfred's, one classic trait is that Alfred stays in the batcave and helps Batman while he's out in the field. Gough did this with Keaton in the final act of Returns (helping him save gotham from the penguin attacks), Caine NEVER did this. The extent of him interacting with Batman was usually criticizing the way he handled things. And don't tell me Lucious fox helping Batman catch the Joker through sonar in the dark knight is the same thing, it wasn't the batcave and it wasn't Alfred. Morgan Freeman played his role well but there's a special bond between Batman and Alfred that just wasn't there in that series partially due to Fox. I'm not saying Alfred and Bruce need to always be on the same page but they were at odds far too much in those movies especially the third one (Alfred should not be abandoning Bruce ever). I think people gave Caines's character a pass because he was great in the third act of the first film.

I may have told you about this before in the past, but I liked Caine's Alfred in BB because he was the concerned parental figure who did the best he could to look after Bruce from childhood, and tried to convince Bruce not to disgrace the family name when he was becoming reckless. He always stood by him no matter what. I have a lot of problems with BB, but Caine alongside Gary Oldman's Gordon were by far the two things I appreciate in that movie.

But by the end of TDK, I just stopped caring about Alfred. I got very annoyed with his constant pretentious monologues along with the Joker, and the whole business over keeping Rachel's letter a secret for eight years doesn't hold water if you ask me.

He explains that he burned the letter to spare Bruce pain. But he failed miserably because keeping the letter a secret caused exactly that. Bruce was misled into believing Rachel would've gotten together with him if she were still alive, and it made him depressed and reclusive as time passed by. Not only did Alfred decided to tell the truth when Bruce had already reached the end of his rope eight years later, he decides to leave him and discourage him from coming back as Batman - despite a new threat is emerging in Gotham City. That's illogical, and even negligent on Alfred's part. All movies have plot conveniences but this wasn't particularly done well at all. I don't know about anybody else, but if I knew a close friend of mine was becoming dead inside because they thought they were deprived of something so deeply, and only I knew the truth of what really happened, I'd quickly tell them the truth before things get any worse.

It didn't help that Alfred and Bruce didn't even reconcile from their falling out, unless you want to count that silly nod to the head in that underwhelming ending. I also don't like how Alfred spoke about the "truth should have its day", yet the film ends with Batman faking his death.

I haven't even read Knigthfall, but from what I understand, Alfred leaves Batman after he was attacked by Bane because he was afraid Bats wouldn't be so lucky to survive if he were to go back and fight for a second time. That made more sense. If TDKR had Bruce Wayne committed to being as Batman for eight years to the point he was losing his identity and life as Bruce Wayne, and a flashback sequence showed Alfred deciding to leave him because he didn't want Bruce to be trapped into this monster anymore, that would've made more sense. But what we got in TDKR was very poorly done, in my opinion.

As for Jeremy Irons' Alfred? You can definitely tell how bitter he is over how cruel and paranoid Bruce has become. Yet for all his talk about how good men become cruel because of rage and feeling powerless, you can say that Alfred was equally powerless because he can't persuade Bruce from stopping his prejudice towards Superman. I wish they had showed him in the ending, or even have him witnessing Bruce regaining a sense of purpose in the end.

[Dagenspear]

But by the end of TDK, I just stopped caring about Alfred. I got very annoyed with his constant pretentious monologues along with the Joker, and the whole business over keeping Rachel's letter a secret for eight years doesn't hold water if you ask me.

If you stopped caring that's not Alfred or the movie's fault.

He explains that he burned the letter to spare Bruce pain. But he failed miserably because keeping the letter a secret caused exactly that. Bruce was misled into believing Rachel would've gotten together with him if she were still alive, and it made him depressed and reclusive as time passed by. Not only did Alfred decided to tell the truth when Bruce had already reached the end of his rope eight years later, he decides to leave him and discourage him from coming back as Batman - despite a new threat is emerging in Gotham City. That's illogical, and even negligent on Alfred's part.

Alfred was right. If it hadn't been for Batman, Bane and his men would have likely been caught by the police. Batman at this point in the story isn't helpful and Bruce can't defeat Bane. Alfred knows that. And he was right.

All movies have plot conveniences but this wasn't particularly done well at all. I don't know about anybody else, but if I knew a close friend of mine was becoming dead inside because they thought they were deprived of something so deeply, and only I knew the truth of what really happened, I'd quickly tell them the truth before things get any worse.

Alfred had no idea why Bruce was acting the way he was until he told him in the hallway scene where Alfred left.

It didn't help that Alfred and Bruce didn't even reconcile from their falling out, unless you want to count that silly nod to the head in that underwhelming ending. I also don't like how Alfred spoke about the "truth should have its day", yet the film ends with Batman faking his death.

It's only underwhelming if you want it to be. Faking his death has nothing to with the truth not having it's day. All of Bruce's friends know he's alive at the end. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[riddler]

If we want to compare Alfred's, one classic trait is that Alfred stays in the batcave and helps Batman while he's out in the field. Gough did this with Keaton in the final act of Returns (helping him save gotham from the penguin attacks), Caine NEVER did this. The extent of him interacting with Batman was usually criticizing the way he handled things. And don't tell me Lucious fox helping Batman catch the Joker through sonar in the dark knight is the same thing, it wasn't the batcave and it wasn't Alfred. Morgan Freeman played his role well but there's a special bond between Batman and Alfred that just wasn't there in that series partially due to Fox. I'm not saying Alfred and Bruce need to always be on the same page but they were at odds far too much in those movies especially the third one (Alfred should not be abandoning Bruce ever). I think people gave Caines's character a pass because he was great in the third act of the first film.

I may have told you about this before in the past, but I liked Caine's Alfred in BB because he was the concerned parental figure who did the best he could to look after Bruce from childhood, and tried to convince Bruce not to disgrace the family name when he was becoming reckless. He always stood by him no matter what. I have a lot of problems with BB, but Caine alongside Gary Oldman's Gordon were by far the two things I appreciate in that movie.

But by the end of TDK, I just stopped caring about Alfred. I got very annoyed with his constant pretentious monologues along with the Joker, and the whole business over keeping Rachel's letter a secret for eight years doesn't hold water if you ask me.

He explains that he burned the letter to spare Bruce pain. But he failed miserably because keeping the letter a secret caused exactly that. Bruce was misled into believing Rachel would've gotten together with him if she were still alive, and it made him depressed and reclusive as time passed by. Not only did Alfred decided to tell the truth when Bruce had already reached the end of his rope eight years later, he decides to leave him and discourage him from coming back as Batman - despite a new threat is emerging in Gotham City. That's illogical, and even negligent on Alfred's part. All movies have plot conveniences but this wasn't particularly done well at all. I don't know about anybody else, but if I knew a close friend of mine was becoming dead inside because they thought they were deprived of something so deeply, and only I knew the truth of what really happened, I'd quickly tell them the truth before things get any worse.

It didn't help that Alfred and Bruce didn't even reconcile from their falling out, unless you want to count that silly nod to the head in that underwhelming ending. I also don't like how Alfred spoke about the "truth should have its day", yet the film ends with Batman faking his death.

I haven't even read Knigthfall, but from what I understand, Alfred leaves Batman after he was attacked by Bane because he was afraid Bats wouldn't be so lucky to survive if he were to go back and fight for a second time. That made more sense. If TDKR had Bruce Wayne committed to being as Batman for eight years to the point he was losing his identity and life as Bruce Wayne, and a flashback sequence showed Alfred deciding to leave him because he didn't want Bruce to be trapped into this monster anymore, that would've made more sense. But what we got in TDKR was very poorly done, in my opinion.

As for Jeremy Irons' Alfred? You can definitely tell how bitter he is over how cruel and paranoid Bruce has become. Yet for all his talk about how good men become cruel because of rage and feeling powerless, you can say that Alfred was equally powerless because he can't persuade Bruce from stopping his prejudice towards Superman. I wish they had showed him in the ending, or even have him witnessing Bruce regaining a sense of purpose in the end.

One of Alfred (in various interpretations) traits is that he worries about what will happen to Bruce after he dies and if Bruce will truly be alone in the world. In most interpretations Bruce is resistant to Robin and sidekicks but it is Alfred who encourages him. In irons case, at least one Robin has come and gone and Bruce is alone. Although it's not shown I'd think he'd be happy about the JLA forming and Bruce feeing less alone.

I liked Alfred in Begins as well; he was there for young Bruce when his parents died and did his best to ensure Bruce doesn't blame himself. He welcomed Bruce back to gotham. Even though it predates Earth One I felt Alfred gave Bruce some tough love here to help mold him for the things he would need to worry about as a vigilante (explaining scars and alibis) and of course saved Bruce when the mansion burned down.

In the sequels though it seemed as if Alfred was criticizing Bruce and making him feel responsible for every bad things that happened including the mob aligning with the Joker in response to Bruce crossing the line. The only time he showed bruce any real compassion or gave him the benefit of the doubt was after Rachel died reminding Bruce Rachel believed in what he stood for and encouraging Bruce to be gothams only hope with Dent's injury. The timing for Alfred leaving Bruce in TDKR was horrendous; Bruce just donned the cowl again, was about to go up against an overmatched opponent, his company got bankrupted. Again I reiterate we never got a single scene of Caines Alfred in the batcave (or anywhere else) on the computer radioing into Batman helping him in the field the way Gough did in returns and Irons did in BvS.

I've brought up before how Nolan got a pass for doing the same things Sam Raimi got criticized for in spider-man 3.

We all know Nolan gave Dent/two face the Eddie Brock/Venom treatment yet Raimi got vilified for it while Nolan got praised. Yet another thing Raimi got criticized heavily for was having the butler hold onto a key piece of information that would have affected the boss motivation for years. Somehow it's not okay for Harry Osborns butler to withhold Norman being killed by himself instead of Spider-man yet it's okay that Alfred burned Rachels letter to Bruce telling him she will marry Harvey Dent and lets Bruce grieve for 8 years over it?

While we're discussing this, their relationship is very beautiful to me in Batman & Robin. I like it so much. Michael, I think it's safe to say for me, is the actor I compare Alfred's to. Him and Efrem Zimbalist, Jr.. They've so far been my favorite. I was working on a Batman tv series pitch, and when I was thinking about Alfred, I pretty had an image of them in my head when coming up with it. That said, I like Sean Pertwee quite a bit on Gotham. Have a very great day everyone!

Gough was the best thing in a bad film. Batman & Robin would have been a bigger disaster without Alfred. It really sums up what we discussed earlier; Alfred fearing Bruce will be alone due to trust issues, Alfred reminding Bruce he shant be here forever. After all Alfred does for bruce it is assuring to know that he felt his life taking after heroes fulfilling.

[Dagenspear]

In the sequels though it seemed as if Alfred was criticizing Bruce and making him feel responsible for every bad things that happened including the mob aligning with the Joker in response to Bruce crossing the line. The only time he showed bruce any real compassion or gave him the benefit of the doubt was after Rachel died reminding Bruce Rachel believed in what he stood for and encouraging Bruce to be gothams only hope with Dent's injury. The timing for Alfred leaving Bruce in TDKR was horrendous; Bruce just donned the cowl again, was about to go up against an overmatched opponent, his company got bankrupted. Again I reiterate we never got a single scene of Caines Alfred in the batcave (or anywhere else) on the computer radioing into Batman helping him in the field the way Gough did in returns and Irons did in BvS.

Bruce donning the cowl was the reason he left. He said that it was only way he had left to make him understand. In his words, he's not Batman anymore. He says that he thinks Bruce is doing this to get himself killed, get himself a good death in sense.

I've brought up before how Nolan got a pass for doing the same things Sam Raimi got criticized for in spider-man 3.

We all know Nolan gave Dent/two face the Eddie Brock/Venom treatment yet Raimi got vilified for it while Nolan got praised. Yet another thing Raimi got criticized heavily for was having the butler hold onto a key piece of information that would have affected the boss motivation for years. Somehow it's not okay for Harry Osborns butler to withhold Norman being killed by himself instead of Spider-man yet it's okay that Alfred burned Rachels letter to Bruce telling him she will marry Harvey Dent and lets Bruce grieve for 8 years over it?

I liked both. But those 2 secret keeping situations are very different.

Gough was the best thing in a bad film. Batman & Robin would have been a bigger disaster without Alfred. It really sums up what we discussed earlier; Alfred fearing Bruce will be alone due to trust issues, Alfred reminding Bruce he shant be here forever. After all Alfred does for bruce it is assuring to know that he felt his life taking after heroes fulfilling.

I don't know what you're talking about. Batman & Robin rocked. Have a very great day you and everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

[The Dark Knight]

It's not anywhere near the top of my tree, but Batman and Robin doesn't have my hate anymore either. It's very rewatchable, which frankly, is what entertainment is all about.