Comic Creators Comment on Batman Movies

[BatmAngelus]

While it's interesting for me to read different opinions from other well-known comic creators, their actual opinions don't affect me one way or another.  They don't change what I think of the movie or of the people themselves.  If this thread had more comic creators gushing love for Burton, I'd feel just as ambivalent.

I might disagree with them, but I've got no problem with Whedon, Wagner, Rucka, etc. as long as:
a) they back up their opinions with why they felt that way (which most, if not all, of them did)
b) they're consistent (thus, why I went after Mark Millar's credibility.  He's never consistent)
c) they don't attack the people whose opinions differ from them. 

It's the same thing with my friends.  I don't expect them to agree with me, but as long as they exemplify all three things, I don't really care.

I don't think any film is above criticism.  When it comes to Whedon's comments on Empire Strikes Back and Temple of Doom, I find them both valid and I'm someone who grew up with Star Wars and Indiana Jones.  Maybe they feel a bit exaggerated ("a cultural problem?") but, again, he at least goes into his reasons.

He criticized ESB's ending for lacking closure and setting up a sequel, which is something I've criticized movies today for anyway (Prometheus anyone?). 

And his criticism of Temple of Doom's scene is that it's reliant on you watching the gun vs. swordsman scene from Raiders to get the joke rather than anything planted in the movie's story itself (Not to mention the fact that Temple is technically a prequel, so Indy hasn't even done the gun trick).  There's a lot of franchise movies that do this on a bigger scale and I take issue with them too.  A ton of Star Trek Into Darkness, for example, (SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT-) is built off of you knowing The Wrath of Khan, which is one of the reasons why I didn't think it worked that well.  If you never saw the Wrath of Khan, then the whole Khan story has little significance to you and, worse, Khan's identity, when it's revealed, doesn't even have any significance to the characters.  A lot of its story is built off of another movie's back.

Perhaps it seems big-headed for him to use films that are part of people's childhoods, but, as I said before, I don't think any movie's above criticism.  Even if I disagreed with him on the movies, he still backs up why he feels that way and doesn't attack Star Wars or Indiana Jones fans.  In both instances, he was talking about storytelling and filmmaking on a broad scale and used well-known movies to help us understand the points he was making. 

I agree that down the line, ESB and ToD will probably be more memorable in cinema history than any movie he makes, but I don't think that makes his points less valid.  Just because the Batman Online posters here aren't filmmakers doesn't mean that our criticisms of, say, Batman & Robin or The Dark Knight Rises are any less valid either.

And, guys, what does Nolan have to do with it?  Whedon's Wizard article was obviously written before Begins came out (and, hell, even features Whedon saying that he doesn't have much faith in it) and I see no indication that his comments on ESB or ToD have anything to do with Nolan either.  I believe he's made positive comments about the Nolan Batman movies over the years, but...so what?

And, really, if we're taking the whole spectrum of Whedon's comments into account, he is on the record criticizing The Dark Knight, too:

"The Dark Knight," for me, has the same problem that every other "Batman" movie has. It's not about Batman.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2012/05/03/avengers-director-joss-whedon-on-trying-to-be-more-like-buffy/2/

I'm not Joss Whedon's #1 fan.  I've only seen one of his TV shows (Angel) and The Avengers.  But I don't have a problem with his opinions.

I love you guys and I completely understand that we live at a time where every other site overlooks the Burton movies.  Most of us here have a great love for B89 and BR.  But if this thread's going to bash every person who criticizes the Burton movies, how different is it from a forum where posters bash everyone who criticizes the Nolan movies?

[gordonblu]

Well put, BatmAngelus, I agree whole-heartedly.

But that's just my opinion 

[GBglide]

Most of us here have a great love for B89 and BR.  But if this thread's going to bash every person who criticizes the Burton movies, how different is it from a forum where posters bash everyone who criticizes the Nolan movies?

Agreed.

[Paul (ral)]

Agreed 100%

[johnnygobbs]

I love you guys and I completely understand that we live at a time where every other site overlooks the Burton movies.  Most of us here have a great love for B89 and BR.  But if this thread's going to bash every person who criticizes the Burton movies, how different is it from a forum where posters bash everyone who criticizes the Nolan movies?

Of course you're right BatmAngelus and I admit I was wrong to bash Whedon simply for not liking 'Batman', although since most of us here are fairly likeminded when it comes to our appreciation of the Burton Batman films I didn't feel it was quite so bad as making a similar comment on a more general film forum (something that I tend to avoid for fear of causing an argument or being seen as a 'troll').  I guess I was being a hypocrite but my problem also partly extends to Whedon's various criticisms.  I just feel many of them are the same clichéd nonsense that gets trotted out all the time to bash the film (i.e. the Prince songs, which as another poster pointed out is still far superior to featuring bleedin' Take That in an 'X-Man' film, and heaven forbid, Jack Nicholson wasn't quite as svelte as the Joker from the comic-books) or just plain misguided (Whedon takes a lot of pride in his dialogue but I can't think of anything he's ever written that ranks alongside 'where does he get those wonderful toys?' or 'ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight' in terms of memorability, and in fact, a lot of Whedon's dialogue often comes across as smug and self-reverential, which is admittedly one of the issues I have with some of Daniel Waters' writing for the first pre-Wesley Strick re-write draft of 'Batman Returns).

[Silver Nemesis]

Mike Mignola (comparing Burton's two Batman films with Guillermo del Toro's Hellboy films)

The first film, to me, was all about Guillermo putting my comic on the screen. Through the course of that first movie, he gradually took possession of those characters. With Hellboy 2, it's about Del Toro owning those characters. What you see there is truly a Del Toro Hellboy. He's much more confident.

In a way, the best way to compare it is to Tim Burton's Batman. The first Batman film was fine, but it was a little safe. With the second film, you could see that Burton was saying he was going to do the crazy sh*t only he was capable of. He was putting his personality on the character. I think that's what you see with the second Hellboy. There were less places where Del Toro would ask me if he could do something. He just did them. It was his character by that point, and that's fine.

http://www.newsarama.com/1510-mike-mignola-looking-back-at-hellboy-2-and-ahead.html

[BatmAngelus]

At least YOU didn't see "Batman and Robin" at a special private screening for DC staffers and guest. I'll never forget the moment Batman whipped out the Bat Mastercard, and someone behind me screamed like a lost soul howling its agony from the pit of the damned. It was Denny O'Neil. What a blood-curdling sound THAT was.

- Peter David.  http://www.peterdavid.net/archives/002412.html

[Silver Nemesis]

Oh, to have been a fly on the wall during that screening. I wonder if they held similar screenings for the other Batman movies. And if so, what sort of reactions did they elicit?

Does anyone think it would be worth having separate threads for comic creators' comments on Schumacher and Nolan?

[Paul (ral)]

Jason Fabok (artist) just posted:

"Rewatched Batman 1989 today. As I watched it, I realized it is the most influential vision of Batman on my art and work in general. It was the movie that helped me discover Batman and later a love for comic books. Such great design and art direction as well."

[The Dark Knight]

In terms of a straight up 'Batman' movie, B89 is where it's at. Though lately I've had a longing feeling. The best Batman movie has yet to be made. Something like the Arkhamverse in live action would be the bees knees.