Your Version of The Dark Knight

[The Dark Knight]

Yeah,TDK's ending is a head scratcher. It's a lot like Lance Armstrong - he's guilty as hell (and many people could know) but without concrete proof, any allegations are just that. Nobody had any form of evidence whatsoever proving Dent was a killer. Yet Batman still sits atop that batpod and rides off into the night with a defamed name for really no reason whatsoever. The moral of the story should have been if you break the law and kill, ala Dent, justice will come - regardless of your standing in the community.

[riddler]

Yeah I have a hard time believing someone like Ramirez who was well established as a double crosser would keep quiet for 8 years while harvey Dent was celebrated as a local hero, knowing full well Gordon is blaming Batman for Dent's crimes.


I am in law school currently and here's my take on what would happen if the Harvey Dent situation happened in the real world.
Even in the real world there's constantly cases of lawyers getting caught doing shady things such as committing purgery, corruption, manipulating evidence and even going to jail for criminal acts. The cases they won don't automatically get overturned even if they are disbarred. Sure there may be inquiries and audits of past cases but a lawyers behaviour outside of a case is not grounds for an appeal.
As I stated earlier, Dent's successor would easily be able to argue that Dent did not commit any known crimes until Rachel was killed and he was scarred (he does kidnap and interrogate the one man at gunpoint after Gordon was 'killed' but there is no evidence of it). Even without the Dawes murder/Dent scarring, none of Dent's crimes were done on the job (in a court of law or at official functions).

Nolan and his cronies seem to imply that all Dents convictions would be overturned and the prisoners set free if word got out of his crimes. But the absolute worst case scenario for the Gotham D.A. office is that new trials be ordered. And even with a new D.A., the evidence and case transcripts of the original convictions would still be intact so as long as the defense didn't come up with new evidence (and I repeat, anything negative Dent did after a case he was involved in does not qualify as evidence for the defense) it would be an easy case for the D.A. to win since the original transcripts are basically a manual for them about how to re-win the case.


Now here's something that rarely gets talked about; it's well established that the Gotham P.D. had plenty of corrupt cops. If any police officer gets caught tampering with evidence, violating official police procedure or lying in court, THOSE arrests and investigations previously made by them can get overturned on the basis that they violated the defendants human rights including the right to a fair trial. It is very common for criminal convictions to be overturned if it is ruled the initial arrest was unlawful. So in the dark knight rises when it does come to light that Gordon framed batman, any arrests he made or investigations he led could be subject to an immediate appeal. Convictions may or may not be intitially overturned but habeus corpus (the right to legally hold an accused individual in custody) could. To be honest I don't know why Nolan didn't play this angle more in the dark knight rises instead of the silly prison breakout; The gotham D.A. would have the opportunity to re-try the case but the key is the defendant would be released from custody unless the prosecution can get another writ of habeus corpus which is difficult to get a second time. Also any evidence obtained by the tainted officer could be deemed inadmissable in court (meaning that hurts the DA's chances of getting the criminal taken back into custody and getting the conviction upheld).




So you can take that to the Nolanites next time they argue Nolans films are so realistic- at least Burton never butchered the legal system to that extent.

[The Laughing Fish]

Good points riddler. But here's something that occurred to me.

I've always thought that the boat scene was such unrealistic BS. For all we know, that boat holding prisoners might have been containing people who were convicted for child molestation, rape and murder, and most likely devour each other in jail. We hear how horrible and brutal the prison system is in real life, since it enables a "survivor of the fittest" environment where convicts rape and murder each other. But in that boat scene in TDK, we're supposed to believe that the majority of convicts wouldn't scramble over each other to get the detonator?

But for argument's sake, let's say all of this is true, and Batman is right when he says that people aren't like the Joker and compassion exists even within criminals. Wouldn't the movie's ending completely contradict this notion? Batman tells Joker that there are people who believe in doing the right thing, but apparently he and Gordon tell a lie because they're afraid the truth about Harvey would tear the entire city apart? So Batman doesn't really trust people after all? What utter nonsense! If people are capable of having the humanity to not kill each other when they are taken hostage, then surely they're capable of understanding that Dent became insane because of the Joker.

God damn I hate this overrated, pretentious and hypocritical piece of garbage of a movie.

[Travesty]

^Ha, I've never even thought of that. That's a really good point.

[The Laughing Fish]

3) I'd have Batman feeling guilty for causing Ras Al Ghul's death; taking into account of own his actions to date and does his best to keep damage to a minimum because of the scrutiny made against him. In the end, however, he feels distraught for allowing the Joker to kill too many people, including Rachel, and fears he will escape and kill again. Batman decides to sacrifice his morals once again and let Joker die, but this time, this course of action gives the law an excuse to no longer tolerate his vigilantism, and Batman suddenly finds himself becoming a fugitive.

I'm going to expand on this even further.

Instead of the disgusting excuse of an ending we got, here are two alternatives which I think would have been much better.

Scenario #1: Batman abandons his moral code and becomes a true Dark Knight.
In the second full length trailer, Bruce says "I now understand what I need to become to fight men like him (i.e. Joker)". Following the chaos that occurred when the Joker escaped from jail, Bruce feels extremely guilty for all the people who were injured and killed, including Rachel. He realises that his moral code is futile if it only puts innocent people at risk, and the only way to keep Gotham safe is to end psychopaths like Joker and prevent the chance for them to escape and do more harm. But in doing so, not only does Batman abandon his code; his actions sacrifice whatever co-operation he had with the police and he becomes a wanted fugitive in the eyes of the law. This could've been a perfect contrast to the ending of B89, and actually would've given Nolan's attempt at realism lots of credibility. Batman runs into the night accepting the consequences of his actions as long as it ensures no more mass deaths happen again, and actually fulfills Gordon's description as "a silent protector, a watchful guardian, a dark knight" for the next eight years.

Scenario #2: Batman keeps both Joker and Two-Face alive AND reveals the truth about Two-Face's crimes to the entire public.
Remember when Batman preached how people wouldn't kill each other when Joker held everyone hostage during the boat crisis...only to then decide to frame himself to cover up for Two-Face because he suddenly had no confidence that people could cope with the truth about the DA's crimes? Instead, let's have Batman backing up his belief that people are "inherently good" like he told the Joker and let the truth about Harvey be known. If the public proves to have the strength to persevere any crisis in the face of adversity, then Batman should trust them to accept the news about what Dent did.

In addition to keeping both villains alive, the now disgraced Harvey Dent faces trial to answer for his crimes, and Joker spends the rest of his life in jail going insane knowing his entire quest for chaos was all for nothing. This not only proves that someone actually won from a philosophical point of view, and the winner is Batman of course, but this also provides a real closure for the Joker, as opposed to keeping his fate suddenly ambiguous and questions over the aftermath of his arrest remain unanswered to this day. Despite feeling heartbroken over Rachel's murder, Batman's faith in humanity and completely defying the Joker keeps him going and, once again, actually fulfills Gordon's description as "a silent protector, a watchful guardian, a dark knight" for the next eight years.

Now while both endings still don't make up for lots of other problems in this movie, I think they would've ended the movie much better, and stayed more truthful to the themes that we're introduced on screen, and would've made TDKR a much better movie too. I doubt either ending would've made people who watched TDK with rose-tinted glasses think any differently other than still saying "it's one of the best movies of all time". But it would certainly help me appreciate the film a lot more than what I do today.

[BatmAngelus]

Wow, I like Scenario 2 a lot more than both Scenario 1 and the movie ending. It would've made more sense than what we got, stayed truer to the comics, and given TDK more of a standalone ending.

[The Dark Knight]

I've always thought that the boat scene was such unrealistic BS. For all we know, that boat holding prisoners might have been containing people who were convicted for child molestation, rape and murder, and most likely devour each other in jail. We hear how horrible and brutal the prison system is in real life, since it enables a "survivor of the fittest" environment where convicts rape and murder each other. But in that boat scene in TDK, we're supposed to believe that the majority of convicts wouldn't scramble over each other to get the detonator?

For a movie that strives for realism, I absolutely hate that scene. It's rubbish and I don't believe it. I have no doubt in my mind someone from either boat would push the detonator, fearing the other side would get in before them. It's a token 'feel good' ending to try and show The Joker isn't right in his beliefs. Batman says The Joker is "alone", yet moments earlier we had people trying to kill Reese after Joker's threat. A heavy police presence to keep people away.

[The Laughing Fish]

Wow, I like Scenario 2 a lot more than both Scenario 1 and the movie ending. It would've made more sense than what we got, stayed truer to the comics, and given TDK more of a standalone ending.

I believe that if Batman had to become an outlaw by the end of the movie, then the first scenario would've been the preferable alternate ending. But yes, I do agree that the second scenario is better. I can imagine Batman convincing Gordon that revealing the truth about Two-Face is necessary, saying something like this:

"The Joker did NOT win. This city has shown him that it's full of people ready to believe in good, and we must continue to fulfill that promise and fight for truth and justice. Not run away and hide from it. I believe in Gotham City".

I think the bit in bold would be a nice little homage to Gordon's pledge to continue after Two-Face's arrest at the end of The Long Halloween. And it would definitely allow Batman to come out of the whole ordeal as a real hero.

I've always thought that the boat scene was such unrealistic BS. For all we know, that boat holding prisoners might have been containing people who were convicted for child molestation, rape and murder, and most likely devour each other in jail. We hear how horrible and brutal the prison system is in real life, since it enables a "survivor of the fittest" environment where convicts rape and murder each other. But in that boat scene in TDK, we're supposed to believe that the majority of convicts wouldn't scramble over each other to get the detonator?

For a movie that strives for realism, I absolutely hate that scene. It's rubbish and I don't believe it. I have no doubt in my mind someone from either boat would push the detonator, fearing the other side would get in before them. It's a token 'feel good' ending to try and show The Joker isn't right in his beliefs. Batman says The Joker is "alone", yet moments earlier we had people trying to kill Reese after Joker's threat. A heavy police presence to keep people away.

Yes, I've often complained about that contradiction too. I remember I spoke to someone who tried to justify that ridiculous boat scene by arguing to me that "people are contradictory in real life, and TDK doesn't hide from complex human behavior". I think such an opinion is outrageous. Human behavior might be complicated, but that scene could not ever happen in real life. People would've panicked violently and murder each other - not bloody debate and calmly vote what to do next! From the prisoners' point of view, I think Nolan was trying to convey the message that not all prisoners are convicted for monstrous crimes in real life, that there is a possibility that a lesser evil among the worst of felons can exist. Even so, that still doesn't make the scene believable. Like I said, widespread violence in prisons are quite commonplace, but we're supposed to believe that convicts would spare another group of civilians as an act of selflessness? Bullcrap. And like I said several times in the past, Bane's release of the angry convicts in TDKR agrees that this scene is bullcrap too.

As much as lots of people complain about TDKR, I really can't stand TDK. The entire third act alone is a trainwreck and unwatchable, and the ending alone is the catalyst for everything that occurred in the third film.

[Dagenspear]

Scenario #2: Batman keeps both Joker and Two-Face alive AND reveals the truth about Two-Face's crimes to the entire public.
Remember when Batman preached how people wouldn't kill each other when Joker held everyone hostage during the boat crisis...only to then decide to frame himself to cover up for Two-Face because he suddenly had no confidence that people could cope with the truth about the DA's crimes? Instead, let's have Batman backing up his belief that people are "inherently good" like he told the Joker and let the truth about Harvey be known. If the public proves to have the strength to persevere any crisis in the face of adversity, then Batman should trust them to accept the news about what Dent did.

That isn't what happened in the movie at all. He didn't suddenly lose confidence. His confidence that people were ready to believe in good was because of Harvey's example. He feared that without that people would lose hope. The movie shows that Bruce views Batman as a faulty mechanism. He views it as a treatment for the symptoms, not as a cure. The Joker actually showcases this as something that is brought about because of Batman's existence, which to Bruce means that he's failed. As far as he's concerned, the Joker is because of Batman, Rachel's death is because of Batman and Harvey's broken psyche and death is because of Batman.

[thecolorsblend]

I think the whole "escalation" bit from BB implied (or could've implied) a more comic book-oriented tone in the future. So why not begin ladling that on in TDK?

The Joker slowly takes over organized crime and by the end of movie he's getting challenged by the Mad Hatter, Black Mask, the Ventriloquist & Scarface, etc. Pick anybody.

For the third film, you can start moving away from the mentally-deranged and start delivering mutant villains like Mr. Freeze, Clayface, Man-Bat or some others.

The Burton/Schumacher franchise got lighter and brighter as it went along. The Nolan trilogy arguably got darker. And that might've been fine with me if it'd become more science-fantasy like the comics with actual supervillains in it.

This isn't unique to TDK but all the live action films have rarely shown Batman taking on standard street crime. It might've been fun to watch Batman rescue a kidnapped child, foil a carjacking, stop a bank robbery or something else that isn't tied in with the main plot of the film just to show that his mission gets big, yes, but it also gets small. All the movies up to now have somewhat missed out on this.