Your Version of Batman Begins

[johnnygobbs]

Anyway Matt Wagner can go screw himself...he's one of the few comic-book artists/writers to openly hate on the Burton films.

Would that it were so. Earlier in the year I started compiling a list of quotes from various comic creators where they gave their thoughts on Burton's Batman films. I figured it might make an interesting thread. But in the end I decided not to post what I'd found. With a few exceptions, most of their opinions were resoundingly negative. 

I'm not sure I could even post Mark Millar's "colourful" review of the 89 film without contravening the site regulations on swearing.

Really Silver Nemesis?  There's a discussion occurring on the IMDb boards at the moment on this subject (i.e. what comic-book artists think of Burton's Batman) and so far the only resoundingly negative references are Matt Wagner and Denny O'Neill.  Someone cited Grant Morrison, who I always have a lot of time for, but Morrison's comments, true to form, were very reasonable and quite generous to the Burton films.  He says that 'Batman Returns' backdrops look like theatrical sets, but even I'd agree with that and I certainly don't see that as a criticism, more a backhanded compliment that notes the deliberate theatricality of the Burton Batman films.

Anyway, I'd like to read those negative comments if you wouldn't mind posting them again, as upsetting as they might be to read.  I find it strange that the numerous haters and detractors on the IMDb boards haven't cited all the 'resoundingly negative' comments.  That's usually the first thing one would expect from a lot of them.

[The Laughing Fish]

Mark Millar can hate on B89 all he wants, it won't change my opinion that Kick-Ass was an abomination of a movie and I can't imagine how the the comic must have been worse. Call me old-fashioned, but I personally don't like watching a ten year-old girl getting beaten up by a grown man.

[johnnygobbs]

Mark Millar can hate on B89 all he wants, it won't change my opinion that Kick-Ass was an abomination of a movie and I can't imagine how the the comic must have been worse. Call me old-fashioned, but I personally don't like watching a ten year-old girl getting beaten up by a grown man.

I didn't realise that Mark Millar hated 'Batman '89'.  He comes across as pretty amiable whenever he appears on TV. 

However, you make a good point about 'Kick-Ass' Laughing Fish.  I enjoyed the first film enough even though I still think it's wildly overrated, although it seems odd that someone who apparently hates 'Batman '89' would authorise the "wait 'til they get a load of me" payoff line at the end of the movie...

But I'm rather disgusted by some of what I've read about the 'Kick-Ass' sequel.  Apparently one of the 'jokes', taken directly from the graphic novel, involves the main antagonist threatening and failing to rape the hero's girlfriend because he can't get a hard-on (oh, my aching sides... ).  Comedy and extreme violence is a very difficult combination to successfully navigate but there is nothing remotely funny about rape.  By contrast, at least the violence in Burton Batman films was deliberately fantastical and rarely involved anything approximating excessive torture or sexual abuse, meaning that the lighter moments never jarred.

[The Laughing Fish]

Mark Millar can hate on B89 all he wants, it won't change my opinion that Kick-Ass was an abomination of a movie and I can't imagine how the the comic must have been worse. Call me old-fashioned, but I personally don't like watching a ten year-old girl getting beaten up by a grown man.

I didn't realise that Mark Millar hated 'Batman '89'.  He comes across as pretty amiable whenever he appears on TV. 

However, you make a good point about 'Kick-Ass' Laughing Fish.  I enjoyed the first film enough even though I still think it's wildly overrated, although it seems odd that someone who apparently hates 'Batman '89' would authorise the "wait 'til they get a load of me" payoff line at the end of the movie...

But I'm rather disgusted by some of what I've read about the 'Kick-Ass' sequel.  Apparently one of the 'jokes', taken directly from the graphic novel, involves the main antagonist threatening and failing to rape the hero's girlfriend because he can't get a hard-on (oh, my aching sides... ).  Comedy and extreme violence is a very difficult combination to successfully navigate but there is nothing remotely funny about rape.  By contrast, at least the violence in Burton Batman films was deliberately fantastical and rarely involved anything approximating excessive torture or sexual abuse, meaning that the lighter moments never jarred.

That's true, although nowadays I wince whenever I watch that scene where Catwoman stops an attempted rape by slashing the punk across the face in Batman Returns. It never used to bother me when I was younger, but now the thought of it is disturbing.

Still, that is nothing compared to that trash called Kick-Ass. Comedy my ass! It was stone cold serious except for the opening scene of the movie. I heard that in the sequel comic, children are brutally murdered by the Red Mist. Maybe that's why Jim Carrey made a fuss about not supporting the film anymore. Then again, I'd respect him more if he'd donate his paycheck to charity.

[Silver Nemesis]

There's a discussion occurring on the IMDb boards at the moment on this subject (i.e. what comic-book artists think of Burton's Batman) and so far the only resoundingly negative references are Matt Wagner and Denny O'Neill.

I've avoided the Batman message boards on the IMDb for years, so I haven't seen that thread. But it's precisely because of the trolling on sites like the IMDb that I was reluctant to gather a lot of negative quotes in one place. But I suppose we should be objective about this, so I'll post the quotes over on the comic boards.

Denny O'Neil has voiced conflicting viewpoints on the Burton films over the years. He wrote the introduction to some sort of Batman Returns souvenir magazine back in '92 (the entire magazine was linked on this site at some point, but I can't find it now) in which he made some favourable comments about both of Burton's Batman films. But then Batman Begins came out and he jumped on the Nolan bandwagon. I can't really blame him for preferring Nolan's films though, since they're a lot closer to his take on the character. But it's a pity he's lost his appreciation for the earlier films.

Regarding Millar - he's written some fantastic comics (Red Son is one of the best Superman stories ever IMO) and in recent years he's made impressive headway in the film industry producing movies like Wanted (2008) and Kick-Ass (2010). He's also been hired as a consultant on Fox's upcoming shared universe films, including X-Men: Days of Future Past (2014) and The Fantastic Four (2015). So I've got a lot of respect for the guy. And in his defence I'll say that I read the Kick-Ass comic when it was first published and enjoyed it a lot. It's a lot funnier than the movie. The violence on the printed page was very slapstick, whereas in the film it came across as quite nasty. Another problem with the film was that it was already in production before the last few issues of the comic had been published. Consequently the movie starts off very faithful to the book, but ends up diverging from the comic quite drastically in the second half. Ultimately I didn't really like the film and I've no interest in seeing the second one. But the original comic is better than you might expect.

While we're on the subject of Millar, I feel compelled to point out that his latest movie, Kick-Ass 2 (2013), currently has a 27% "rotten" rating on Rotten Tomatoes, with a 22% rating amongst Top Critics. So far it's the lowest rated comic book/superhero movie of 2013 by quite a margin.

Batman 89 has a 70% rating.

Batman Returns has an 81% "certified fresh" rating.

People who live in glass houses...

I enjoyed the first film enough even though I still think it's wildly overrated, although it seems odd that someone who apparently hates 'Batman '89' would authorise the "wait 'til they get a load of me" payoff line at the end of the movie... 

That line was in the original comic too.



I think he used to like Batman 89, but recently changed his opinion after rewatching it.

I heard that in the sequel comic, children are brutally murdered by the Red Mist.

I haven't read the sequel comic, but I've heard about that scene. It's what put me off watching the new film.

[BatmAngelus]

The quotes are now posted under the Misc. section:
http://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=2477.msg36606

Let's move the Millar discussion there.

[riddler]

I kind of prefer Bruce and Alfred doing most of the work but I forgive Fox because if you ignore the fact that he wasn't a comic character (and let's face it if we accept Max Schreck in returns, we kind of have to accept Fox) he was an excellent character. It did create a satisfying ending with Earle.

Definitely I'd recast Batman and Rachel. In fact I'm not sure if I'd even have Rachel; I like the thought of Bruce being truly alone in the sense that Alfred is his only friend/family.

I'm not the one who came up with this idea here but someone else brought up Jim Cazievel and especially with Passion of the christ coming in 2004, that could have been wildly popular; he does different voices without being silly. Watch Person of interest, that character could easily be Bruce Wayne.


I would also redesign the batmobile to look more like a car.

[The Laughing Fish]

I kind of prefer Bruce and Alfred doing most of the work but I forgive Fox because if you ignore the fact that he wasn't a comic character (and let's face it if we accept Max Schreck in returns, we kind of have to accept Fox) he was an excellent character.

Correction: Fox was introduced in the comics back in the seventies, although he was portrayed as a CEO of Wayne Enterprises instead of the inventor/World's Greatest Detective in these movies. Like I said before, I'd rather have him serve as a mentor for Bruce; giving him all the equipment he needs as well teaching him all of his expertise in forensic science.

Definitely I'd recast Batman and Rachel. In fact I'm not sure if I'd even have Rachel; I like the thought of Bruce being truly alone in the sense that Alfred is his only friend/family.

Is it just me, or would Bale have been better cast as Harvey Dent/Two-Face? He's better off playing troubled, deranged characters anyway. And besides, that stupid voice he does as Batman would be a much better fit for another character who is severely mentally ill. 

[BatmanFanatic93]

Is it just me, or would Bale have been better cast as Harvey Dent/Two-Face? He's better off playing troubled, deranged characters anyway. And besides, that stupid voice he does as Batman would be a much better fit for another character who is severely mentally ill. 

Heheheh.

[zDBZ]

And I guess I'd have Bruce evacuate his home in a way that doesn't disgrace his family name but still seem like a goof. I'd have him be all like:

"Thanks for coming tonight everyone, but I feel kinda sick and really just want to be left alone. No, seriously. But don't think me rude... let's continue the party say, next week on Friday? Come back, we'll pretend we never stopped! I could just go to bed and leave you all here... but I'm greedy and I don't want any fun to happen without me! (laughs) Thank you, good night!"

Good fix.

What would I do with Begins?

- The childhood friend of Bruce's who grows up to enter the DA's office is Harvey Dent, not Rachel, and there would be at least a hint of masked psychological problems.

- The Mafia is a much more difficult foe to bring down. The ease with which Falcone was brought down was ridiculous; even the most incompetent mob boss knows not to be on the scene of a major drug shipment. Throughout Nolan's whole trilogy, the Mob never lives up to all the talk about how powerful it is. Frankly, though Warners would never allow it, I think Begins would've been stronger if the Mob was the only foe Batman fought, but at the very least, Falcone should've stayed out of jail and they shouldn't have come off as such a joke.

- Speaking of villains turned into jokes; the Scarecrow is one of my favourite Bat-villains, and he came off as a glorified henchman in Begins. He could've been behind the microwave plan and served as the main villain, but that leaves the League of Shadows with no pay-off. My solution? No League of Shadows. Don't show Bruce's training. Show the parents getting killed, show the confrontations with Chill and Falcone, but leave it a total mystery as to what his training was.

- I actually don't have a problem with "Fox as Q," but I would've let Bruce be more knowledgeable about the gadgetry.

- Better design for the Bat-suit and Batmobile.

- Much less expository dialogue.