More defense of Schumacher's films (video)

[Dagenspear]

"I don't want to kill you!"

"You know, I thought you really were Dent."

In the scene preceding those two lines of dialogue, the Joker opened fire on Harvey's convoy and he was clearly shooting to kill. If he really thought Harvey was Batman... well, obviously he wanted to kill him.

That's not the line. He says, "You know... for a minute there... I thought you really were Dent. The way you threw yourself after her!" This showcases that when he attacked the convoy he likely didn't believe that Dent was Batman. But for a minute after the fake reveal he did.

Of course, that all ended up being a ruse anyway. Apparently the Joker intended to get caught. So rather than fake it and allow himself to get caught in a way that might not get him killed, he finds the most intricate, Rube Goldberg way to "infiltrate" the police station.

The Joker doesn't seem to really care if he gets killed.

All this requires the Joker to know Harvey wasn't actually Batman (which invalidates the first part of the interrogation scene with Batman) and for him to somehow predict he'd be kept in the same holding cell as Random Thug #1 into whose chest he'd implanted a bomb. It also requires him to know he'd somehow be able to detonate the bomb in a way that wouldn't take himself out too.

The Joker says that he just does things. He didn't know that he could detonate the bomb in a way that wouldn't take him out too. He just did it. It also doesn't really seem to matter if the thug was in his cell or not. But the mob does have cops on their payroll.

The obvious question to ask is why would he go to all this trouble? You could say he was protecting the mob (his temporary employers) and his real objective was getting to Lao. Fine.

If that's the argument, why even get arrested at all? Why not stitch a phone into Random Thug #1's chest, have him get arrested for something or other and then detonate the bomb remotely? That alone might kill Lao. But if it didn't, the police station would be chaos and smithereens, which would allow a cop on Maroni's payroll (which don't seem to be in short supply) to kill Lao when nobody's looking.

Thank you for this. This forced me to realize something I hadn't thought about.

The Joker doesn't want Lao dead. Because Lao is the only person who knows where the money is. So, blowing him up would be counter-productive. He needs him alive to get the money.

Was the Joker's objective then a face-to-face conversation with Batman? Um, why would he want that? But if I'm supposed to believe the Joker needed some kind of conversation with Batman, there are any number of other ways to get it. Allowing himself to get arrested is probably the stupidest possible way to go about the job considering he can't be sure Gordon will let him be interrogated by Batman.

All around, TDK works great as long as you don't think about it very much.

The Joker says why he did this: He wanted to see what Batman would do. Why would he want a conversation with Batman? What? Because he adores the crap out of him. He completes him. This plan achieved all his goals. It makes sense.

[thecolorsblend]

That's not the line. He says, "You know... for a minute there... I thought you really were Dent. The way you threw yourself after her!"

So my summary of the line I wrote off the top of my head wasn't word-for-word perfect?

The Joker doesn't seem to really care if he gets killed.

Ah yes, the Indestructible Crazy Enemy. He can do anything and succeed at anything because, whoa, he's crazy, man!!!

The Joker says that he just does things.

Nice try but in that same scene he denies having a plan. That's contradicted by his actions in kidnapping Rachel and Harvey and deliberately giving Batman and the police the mixed up addresses. It's also contradicted by the scene where Batman dangles him off a building and he admits to targeting Harvey in all this.

The Joker doesn't want Lao dead. Because Lao is the only person who knows where the money is. So, blowing him up would be counter-productive. He needs him alive to get the money.

Really? But that can't be right. I thought the Joker was a guy with simple tastes. Doesn't he enjoy dynamite and gunpowder and gasoline? I mean, the thing they have in common is they're cheap. Why, if the Joker ever came face to face with a huge pile of money, I could see him burning it up or something.

So no. I don't buy a word of what you just said.

The Joker says why he did this: He wanted to see what Batman would do. Why would he want a conversation with Batman? What? Because he adores the crap out of him. He completes him. This plan achieved all his goals. It makes sense.

Again, if that's all he wanted to do, there are less risky ways of going about it.

There are positive aspects of Nolan's films but overall they really only work for me as an Elseworld's story.

[Dagenspear]

So my summary of the line I wrote off the top of my head wasn't word-for-word perfect?

It changes the context of the line.

Ah yes, the Indestructible Crazy Enemy. He can do anything and succeed at anything because, whoa, he's crazy, man!!!

It just happens to work. It is a movie.

Nice try but in that same scene he denies having a plan. That's contradicted by his actions in kidnapping Rachel and Harvey and deliberately giving Batman and the police the mixed up addresses. It's also contradicted by the scene where Batman dangles him off a building and he admits to targeting Harvey in all this.

He doesn't say he doesn't have plan. He asks Harvey "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" He doesn't say he doesn't have a plan.

Really? But that can't be right. I thought the Joker was a guy with simple tastes. Doesn't he enjoy dynamite and gunpowder and gasoline? I mean, the thing they have in common is they're cheap. Why, if the Joker ever came face to face with a huge pile of money, I could see him burning it up or something.

So no. I don't buy a word of what you just said.

It was for the mob. He got the money for them. He said he was a man of his word. He fulfilled his end of the deal. It's all there.

Again, if that's all he wanted to do, there are less risky ways of going about it.

But not a way that would achieve all of his goals. Get Lau, have a conversation with Batman, see what he'd do. It was a kill three birds with one stone situation. Plus I bet any other way wouldn't have been as fun for him.

There are positive aspects of Nolan's films but overall they really only work for me as an Elseworld's story.

It's all elseworlds.

[thecolorsblend]

I've seen people desperately reach to justify something before but... wow...

[Dagenspear]

I've seen people desperately reach to justify something before but... wow...

I'm stating what happens in the film.

[The Laughing Fish]

He doesn't say he doesn't have plan. He asks Harvey "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" He doesn't say he doesn't have a plan.

Asking a question like that only alludes to telling somebody you don't have a plan for your actions. In the Joker's case, that's complete and utter crap and it only makes Harvey Dent an even bigger moron for falling for that bullsh*t.

It was for the mob. He got the money for them. He said he was a man of his word. He fulfilled his end of the deal. It's all there.

Except he ended up burning the money to spite the mob. Remember?



Anyway, I thought you believed that the Joker was a maniac who spouts nonsense and lies just to cause chaos? In that case, that's not somebody I'd describe "a man of his word".

I'm a Joker fan, but I can't believe how poorly written he is in this movie. Very overrated interpretation of the character.

[Dagenspear]

Asking a question like that only alludes to telling somebody you don't have a plan for your actions. In the Joker's case, that's complete and utter crap and it only makes Harvey Dent an even bigger moron for falling for that bullsh*t.

Harvey was already psychologically broken. The Joker just twisted him. Of course that alludes that he doesn't have a plan, but it's also a way of not saying that he doesn't. It's a manipulation tactic.

Except he ended up burning the money to spite the mob. Remember?

He said he was only burning his half. But even if he did burn the whole thing, he still did that so he could get it.

Anyway, I thought you believed that the Joker was a maniac who spouts nonsense and lies just to cause chaos? In that case, that's not somebody I'd describe "a man of his word".

I didn't say lies. I said nonsense. Which to me means that he doesn't really have a true set of beliefs beyond trying to cause chaos. But I didn't say he was a man of his word. I said that he said that.

I'm a Joker fan, but I can't believe how poorly written he is in this movie. Very overrated interpretation of the character.

I don't really see how.

[Wayne49]

I think as the film finds newer generations, it is met with less criticism.

[thecolorsblend]

I think as the film finds newer generations, it is met with less criticism.

If you're referring to TDK, I find the opposite to be true, actually. When the film first came it received close to universal acclaim. Over the past several years there's been a noticeable tapering off of peoples appreciation for it.

If you mean the Schumacher films, yes indeed, people do seem willing to give them a second look these days. There's a lot to enjoy too so I'm fine with it.

[Wayne49]

I think as the film finds newer generations, it is met with less criticism.

If you're referring to TDK, I find the opposite to be true, actually. When the film first came it received close to universal acclaim. Over the past several years there's been a noticeable tapering off of peoples appreciation for it.

If you mean the Schumacher films, yes indeed, people do seem willing to give them a second look these days. There's a lot to enjoy too so I'm fine with it.

I'm referring to Batman & Robin. When that film was originally released, the hero genre was still in it's infancy where the DC license, mainly Batman, was really the only notable bright spot from the comic industry. Comic fans wanted respect for their heroes. So a Batman movie had to carry not only the hopes of every Batman fan out there, but the perceived 'dignity' of comic fans everywhere. Schumacher's miscue was going completely lighthearted, when fans wanted the notoriety of a Dark Knight film. Fans felt betrayed and insulted based on those expectations.

But the grand irony to all that is Batman Forever set the stage for this next installment. When you had fans and critics alike pumping their fists in acceptance of a movie that played to those ideas of fun and a removed seriousness that the Burton films had anchored themselves to, it was a collision of unintended treatments that found their way into this film. In short, the studio gave what was perceived as more of what was liked in Forever.

18 years later the industry and fan sensibilities are much different. You have television shows, Netflix exclusives, monster big budget hero films and Marvel is sharing in that success. Add to that a slew of different treatments of Batman in cartoons and the resurgence of Batman '66, this film no longer has to carry the expectations of an entire nation of fans demanding respect. In short, I think the film is beginning to be viewed on it's own merits instead of what fans felt like they needed back in 1997 when comic book material was still frowned on.

Sure, you still have that pocket of fans that feel some odd desire to shout their hate of this film, which I find kind of suspect. Because in an era where there are SO many iterations of heroes, many of which are not successful, this one seems to be watched the most, which tells me its a guilty pleasure for many.  It's a good looking film, even if fans are divided on it's treatment. In many ways, it's one of the films in this series that visually holds up the best. And that could be what brings people back to it so much. After all, Batman is a visually fascinating hero and this movie plays to those comic images in a creative and colorful fashion that I believe fans enjoy. I honestly think if Schumacher had given Clooney a gruff voice as Batman, replaced Bane with henchmen, and removed so many of the ice puns for Arnold, you might have a film people celebrate today.