Selina's Day Is Completely Out Of Sequence

[The Dark Knight]

I'll tackle this thread when I'm up to it. But most of these things listed are just general film errors that occur in all movies, eg. scissors changing colour, etc.

[Silver Nemesis]

A few more goofs.

The Penguin's necktie vanishes and reappears between shots during his first meeting with Shreck.







When we see the exterior shot of Cobblepot sitting in the hall of records at night it is clearly snowing outside.



Then in the following shot it's not snowing.



But in the very next shot it's snowing heavily again.



During the scene where Cobblepot rescues the Mayor's baby, he ascends through the manhole by standing on his mechanical duck. However the head of the duck would have prevented the vehicle from rising all the way to street level. And yet it apparently does so in the movie.

During the big street fight we see two clowns attacking a man in a beige coat. They shove him against a wall, punch him in the stomach and then leave him lying on the floor while they charge at Batman.





However in the very next shot we can see these same two clowns in the background only just now attacking the same man, grabbing him and pushing him up against the wall.



After the police open fire on Batman we see him fall off the roof and land on top of a nearby building. If you look to the left of the screen as Batman hits the roof, you can see the hand of one of the film crew throwing him into shot. It's hard to get a screenshot of this goof, but if you watch the shot frame by frame you'll see it quite clearly.



This isn't necessarily a goof, but it's something that's always confused me. When Batman throws the napalm capsule at Catwoman she shrieks and falls backwards. Then we see her falling face forward onto the slanted roof of another building.



Batman drops down onto the ledge directly beneath him and reaches down to grab her, indicating that the slanted roof is directly below the ledge and part of the very same building they were just fighting on. So in order for Catwoman to have landed face first onto the sloping roof, she would have had to have jumped backwards over Batman, then kicked off the next building to push herself back towards the first building. It's very confusing and I don't think the spatial logic makes sense.

Incidentally, this ledge is the same ledge that Catwoman and Penguin talk on later in the movie. 





But the view looking down into the plaza is different in the two scenes. In fact if you look at the position of the cathedral you can see that it's on completely the opposite side of the plaza.





Not only that, but when Batman punches Catwoman off the ledge she falls directly downwards and lands in a completely different street altogether. Even though we just saw seconds earlier that this ledge was directly above the plaza.



Following the death of the Ice Princess, Cobblepot throws away his glass of wine. We can clearly see his hands are empty.



Then in the following shot he's holding the glass again.



If you watch carefully during the electrocution scene you can see a wire being used to tug the legs out from beneath the generator behind Shreck, thus causing it to topple over. You can see both the wire and its shadow on the floor in this shot.



Missed it? Don't worry, because a few shots later the generator is standing upright again and you can once again see the wire tugging the legs out from beneath, this time from a different angle. In this shot you can see the wire faintly as a white line between the vertical bars of the ladder to the left of the frame. It's clearer when you see it in motion.



And a few shots later the generator is upright again and we see it topple for a third time.

[BatmAngelus]

Fantastic set of observations, Silver, and several things I hadn't noticed before.  As with many cases on this forum, I feel like the Watson to your Holmes.

Well unfortunately I can't seem to find the original script online anywhere, but I remember reading it years ago and noticing that the order of scenes was different from the finished film. Presumably Burton rearranged them in order to spread the action out a bit more, having Catwoman's first fight scene occur earlier in the film as a way of breaking up the 'talky' scenes. But he did it in a rather clumsy manner IMO.

The Daniel Waters draft, with Robin and Max and Penguin as brothers: http://www.ed-wood.net/batman-returns-script1.htm

The Waters and Strick draft that's closer to the movie: http://www.ed-wood.net/batman-returns-script2.htm

In the latter draft the order is this:
- Max gets kidnapped.
- Selina gets home and listens to her messages, one of which is this:

SELINA'S OWN VOICE
               Hi, Selina, this is yourself
               calling.  To remind you, honey,
               that you have to come all the way
               back to the office unless you
               remembered to bring home the Bruce
               Wayne file, because the meeting's
               on Wednesday and Max Slavemaster
               will freak if every pertinent fact
               is not at your lovely tapered
               fingertips.

So, as you can see, the meeting between Max and Penguin was meant to be days later.  We don't see Selina again for awhile, though.

Let's go into the next scenes:
- Introduction to Penguin, who blackmails Max into helping him.

- The next morning, Penguin "saves" the Mayor's baby.

- That night, Bruce catches what happened on the news. 
Note in the script, the anchorman calls it "this morning's miracle," which could better explain the continuity error in the movie that Silver pointed out.

- The next day, Penguin visits the Hall of Records.

- That night, Batman passes by at the Batmobile.

- Penguin visits his parent's graves and reveals his name as Oswald Cobblepot.  Gothamites react to the news.

- Bruce, in the Batcave, looks into the Red Triangle Circus gang background and connects Oswald to the "aquatic bird boy"

- That night, Selina is at the office and Max attempts to kill her.  She survives and destroys her apartment and becomes Catwoman.

- The next morning, Bruce goes to Max's office for the meeting.

Here's the scene that Silver Nemesis described.

INT. THE OUTER OFFICE--DAY                               

     Max and Chip stare, expressionless, out the shattered
     office window.  Snow has wisped into the office.

                             MAX
               ... I hope nothing--I don't know,
               "icky" happened to her.  Devoured
               by stray reindeer, or ... Bruce.

     Bruce Wayne has just entered.  As he shakes with Max, his
     eyes drift to the window.

                             BRUCE
               Hmm.  Primitive ventilation.

                             MAX
               Damn those Carny bolsheviks the
               other night, throwing bricks at
               my windows --

                             BRUCE
               No.  No glass on the inside.

                             MAX
                      (fidgets)
               Weird, huh?

I'd love to see this scene, just for the beat of Keaton being a detective and Walken shrugging off his suspicion.

- Selina appears, meeting Bruce and freaking out Max.
- That night, then, is Selina's first night out as Catwoman, saving the woman from the rapist.

In the absence of a Goofs thread, I thought I'd just post a few more errors in the film. Certain users have been nitpicking every tiny flaw in Nolan's films recently, so I think it only fair to balance things out by nitpicking at Burton's films a bit too.

Off-topic, but thank you for using the term nitpick correctly.  I feel like the meaning of the word has gotten misconstrued and corrupted over the years.  Nitpicking used to be exactly what's in this thread- pointing out continuity errors or tiny things that don't really affect the whole movie, like catching when it's Michael Keaton's stunt double in the suit, when you pause it at a certain time code.

Somewhere along the way, the term "nitpick" started to apply to general criticism.  Want to discuss plot holes or why the story didn't make sense to you?  You're a nitpicker.  Think someone was miscast in a role?  You're a nitpicker.

I feel that some circles- like a certain place dubbed as "the other forum" that's occasionally mentioned here- use the term in a condescending way to demean those who dare say anything negative about a film.

[Silver Nemesis]

As with many cases on this forum, I feel like the Watson to your Holmes.

When it comes to our writing collaborations, I'd say you were the Bill Finger to my Bob Kane; you do all the hard work and I take all the credit.

But no, the Holmes/Watson analogy makes us sound cooler, so let's go with that. And colors can be Inspector Lestrade.

The Daniel Waters draft, with Robin and Max and Penguin as brothers: http://www.ed-wood.net/batman-returns-script1.htm

The Waters and Strick draft that's closer to the movie: http://www.ed-wood.net/batman-returns-script2.htm

Thanks for those links. Every time I favourite a site with the scripts on, they get removed within a matter of months. Let's hope that doesn't happen this time.

The sequence of events was clearly a lot better thought out in the original script. And it's interesting to see that Waters did address the problem of Selina's body disappearing from the alleyway.

MAX
               ... I hope nothing--I don't know,
               "icky" happened to her.  Devoured
               by stray reindeer, or ... Bruce.

I'll probably be hated for saying this, but I think Batman Returns could benefit from a re-edit every bit as much as Batman Forever. I don't mean do a George Lucas-style revisionist hatchet job on it. But something more subtle, along the lines of the Blade Runner Final Cut. Reinsert little bits of dialogue from the original script to give context to the more ambiguous plot points; digitally alter some of the matte shots to make the layout of Gotham more geographically consistent (for example, change the background in the shot of Batman dangling from Catwoman's whip); ideally add some more Bruce Wayne scenes, especially in the first half an hour of the movie. This would probably mean making the film slightly longer. But would anyone object to that? If Nolan can have a 165 minute Batman film, why can't we add an extra 10 minutes onto Batman Returns' 126 minute runtime?

I feel that some circles- like a certain place dubbed as "the other forum" that's occasionally mentioned here- use the term in a condescending way to demean those who dare say anything negative about a film.

Almost everything in this thread in minutiae; stuff you'd never notice during your first viewing and which has no major effect on the film's overall quality. But when it comes to a question of how a penniless Bruce Wayne got from the Pit to Gotham and infiltrated its impenetrable defences, that's not nitpicking; that's a gaping plot hole. I assume that's the sort of thing you're referring to with regards to "the other site". Personally I think it's good that we can discuss the shortcomings of the films we like. After all, no film is perfect.

Film critic Mark Kermode made an interesting point during his Man of Steel review where he said that if a film can engage you to the point where you don't notice small plot holes or think too hard about lapses in logic, then the film succeeds on a dramatic/emotional level. But if you're sitting there thinking "how does such and such a thing work?" it's because the film isn't holding your attention and has therefore failed to engage you the way it ought to do. Unfortunately some fanboys can't handle the fact that not everyone is engaged by their favourite films to the extent that they can overlook their flaws.

Anyway, here are a few more nitpicky goofs in Batman Returns.

During the opening riot scene, Batman flips a switch to activate the shinbreakers on the Batmobile.



A few seconds later he flips the same switch, only this time to activate the afterburner.



Later in the film he flips the same switch yet again, this time to activate the Batmobile's Batmissile mode.



The penguin enclosure at Gotham Zoo is housed in a section called Arctic World. However penguins are native to the southern hemisphere, so it should really be called Antarctic World. But that would be equally problematic since there's a giant polar bear statue, and there are no polar bears in the South Pole.

I'll end this post with the most famous goof of all: the makeup disappearing from around Batman's eyes before he unmasks himself.

[BatmanFanatic93]

I'll probably be hated for saying this, but I think Batman Returns could benefit from a re-edit every bit as much as Batman Forever. I don't mean do a George Lucas-style revisionist hatchet job on it. But something more subtle, along the lines of the Blade Runner Final Cut. Reinsert little bits of dialogue from the original script to give context to the more ambiguous plot points; digitally alter some of the matte shots to make the layout of Gotham more geographically consistent (for example, change the background in the shot of Batman dangling from Catwoman's whip); ideally add some more Bruce Wayne scenes, especially in the first half an hour of the movie. This would probably mean making the film slightly longer. But would anyone object to that? If Nolan can have a 165 minute Batman film, why can't we add an extra 10 minutes onto Batman Returns' 126 minute runtime?

Well i can probably do it i mean i'm working on batman forever at the moment but after i'm done with it i can maybe do batman returns if anyone wants me to i cause i have the dvd & i can just browse through the making of the film & trailers & pick up any scenes or dialog that weren't in the movie & find away to put them back not only that but i can also restore the footage of it's colors & re-edit some parts that weren't in the script. 

[Silver Nemesis]

It's good of you to offer, BatmanFanatic93. But the problem is that none of the deleted scenes have been released. There are a few alternate takes in the trailers, but not enough for a substantial re-edit. Ideally you'd need access to the archives where the original footage is stored. You'd probably also need to conduct some ADR sessions with a convincing sound-alike to dub over some of the problematic dialogue. It would be an expensive and time consuming project, and one which would require the cooperation of Warner Bros. Unfortunately WB is reluctant to acknowledge the existence of any pre-Nolan Batman movies, let alone celebrate them. So the odds of this kind of edit ever happening are practically zilch.

I'd be interested in seeing what the film would look like if someone could undo the postproduction colour correction. The trailers and publicity photos suggest a more realistic aesthetic along the lines of Batman 89. I'd like to see what that would look like.

[BatmanFanatic93]

Oh well better luck next time i guess...probably when i'm in my 50's.

[BatmAngelus]

It's good of you to offer, BatmanFanatic93. But the problem is that none of the deleted scenes have been released. There are a few alternate takes in the trailers, but not enough for a substantial re-edit. Ideally you'd need access to the archives where the original footage is stored. You'd probably also need to conduct some ADR sessions with a convincing sound-alike to dub over some of the problematic dialogue. It would be an expensive and time consuming project, and one which would require the cooperation of Warner Bros. Unfortunately WB is reluctant to acknowledge the existence of any pre-Nolan Batman movies, let alone celebrate them. So the odds of this kind of edit ever happening are practically zilch.

I'd be interested in seeing what the film would look like if someone could undo the postproduction colour correction. The trailers and publicity photos suggest a more realistic aesthetic along the lines of Batman 89. I'd like to see what that would look like.

This and the fact that the out-of-order timeline is a minor issue in the overall piece, in my opinion.  I'd have preferred the scenes in order, too, but the current version still has all the major, essential moments/scenes for the story to work.  Rearranging the scenes would help fix the continuity errors, but not greatly improve the film.

I think the easiest explanation for the movie's order is that meetings between big business people get shifted all the time.  Offscreen, Bruce could've postponed his appointment with Max because he wanted to spend more time looking into the Red Triangle Circus Gang in the Batcave.  This way, he could better prepare to hit Max with the accusations and intel at their meeting.

[Silver Nemesis]

This and the fact that the out-of-order timeline is a minor issue in the overall piece, in my opinion.  I'd have preferred the scenes in order, too, but the current version still has all the major, essential moments/scenes for the story to work.  Rearranging the scenes would help fix the continuity errors, but not greatly improve the film.

I don't think they should reorder the scenes either. But there'd be no harm in editing out or redubbing some of the lines that create the problem in the timeline. Change Selina's line to "I was just boning up for your Bruce Wayne meeting next week" and restore the scene between Bruce and Max before their meeting. Then change Selina's line from "last night" to "the other night" and the problem's solved.

The only major issue I have with the pacing of the film is the lack of Bruce Wayne/Batman in the first half. He only has one line of dialogue in the first 35 minutes of the movie – "We'll see" – and he has no emotional investment in what is happening. He's a purely reactive character for the first half of the film, just mechanically responding to problems without really caring about them. He doesn't develop an emotional investment in the film's plot until he meets Selina. And that doesn't happen until half way through the movie.

If I could change two things about Batman Returns it would be these:

1. Give Gordon a proper role in the film. He only has about four lines in the entire movie and those could have been spoken by any run-of-the-mill cop. Gordon's an important character in the Batman mythos. He should have played a proper role in this story.

2. Most importantly of all, establish a proper character arc for Bruce Wayne/Batman in the first half of the film.

•   Have some scenes between him and Alfred where it's explained that he's feeling lonely and hurt after Vicki walked out on him.
•   Maybe show him returning to the Batcave after the first riot scene, getting out of the Batmobile and being congratulated by Alfred, then brushing off his victory as "same old, nothing new" and returning to the library to be alone. Show Alfred's reaction to that.
•   Have Bruce identify with Cobblepot's feelings of loneliness and dispossession when he sees him on the TV. There's a hint of this in the movie when he says "His parents... I hope he finds them" - they should have built upon that and made it more prominent.
•   Have things click into place when he meets Selina so we understand what he's hoping to get out of the relationship.
•   Maybe have a scene between Batman and Gordon on the roof of police headquarters where Gordon asks Batman if there's something going on between him and Catwoman and Batman refuses to answer, thereby sowing seeds of distrust between them that would lead nicely into the subplot about Batman being framed.

These are just a few things I'd have changed if I'd had creative input on the movie.

[lifesabitch]

You guys do see her scream and run off during the explosion when she's electrocuting Shrek, right?

What about that knocking sound as she's making her cat costume?