Selina's Day Is Completely Out Of Sequence

[lifesabitch]

Remember she said that she was getting ready for Bruce Wayne's meeting the next day to Shrek the night she's killed? Okay, she's shoved out the window, you know the rest. The next morning, the morning the Bruce Wayne meeting is to take place, we're instead shown Penguin visiting his parents' graves and making a spectacle out of himself for the media. We then cut to nighttime. Catwoman has her "first time" in the alley way. The next day, it's morning again, and Selina shows up for work. So the meeting that was due to take place, took place two days later -- but wait, the script actually called for this to be shot in the right order. Burton f'ed up. Catwoman did her "first time" the night of her transformation, which makes more sense.

[johnnygobbs]

Remember she said that she was getting ready for Bruce Wayne's meeting the next day to Shrek the night she's killed? Okay, she's shoved out the window, you know the rest. The next morning, the morning the Bruce Wayne meeting is to take place, we're instead shown Penguin visiting his parents' graves and making a spectacle out of himself for the media. We then cut to nighttime. Catwoman has her "first time" in the alley way. The next day, it's morning again, and Selina shows up for work. So the meeting that was due to take place, took place two days later -- but wait, the script actually called for this to be shot in the right order. Burton f'ed up. Catwoman did her "first time" the night of her transformation, which makes more sense.

Does she ever say she's getting ready for the meeting the next day?  Perhaps the tree-lighting ceremony was on the Friday night.  During the weekend the Penguin emerges in public, first saving the mayor's baby and then being allowed to visit the Hall of Records.  I think there are two days between Selina being pushed out of the window and the meeting between Shreck and Bruce because following the Penguin's nighttime visit to the Hall of Records and the visit to his parents' graves we have a daylight scene in which various Gothamites discuss the latest news about the 'frog that became a prince...' before seguing to the confrontation between Catwoman and the mugger.  The business meeting would appear to occur the day after Catwoman's first public appearance which would presumably make it a Monday and Selina's first day back at work.

[Silver Nemesis]

There is a massive continuity error concerning the time frame of events in this film. It's bothered me for years, so I'm glad someone's finally brought it up.

Yes, the meeting between Bruce Wayne and Max Shreck is meant to take place the day after the first Red Triangle gang riot. This was explicitly stated in the original script and Selina mentions it in the finished film where she talks about the events of "last night" in reference to Shreck pushing her out of the window. However, if we look at the preceding scenes it becomes clear that at least two days have passed since that fateful night.

First of all we have the scene of the Penguin rescuing the Mayor's baby. This clearly takes place during the daytime. We then cut to a scene of Bruce Wayne watching the news report in Wayne Manor. The reporter states that the events being shown occurred "only minutes ago". And yet it's dark in Wayne Manor and the clock above the fireplace reads ten minutes past six. Since the latitude and longitude of Gotham City are meant to be roughly equal to those of New York, the sun would probably set around half past four during late December. Which means the daylight scene being broadcast on the television couldn't possibly have occurred "only minutes ago". It would have to have been several hours ago. So what we end up with is an illogical day-to-night transition of Ed Woodian proportions.

But there's more.

We then see more daylight scenes of the Penguin going to city hall to research his lineage, followed by the scene of Batman patrolling the city at night. And from there we go to the Penguin in the cemetery during the daytime. So at least two complete days have elapsed since the first riot scene and we are now onto the third day. But then we go back to night time for the scene of Selina's fight in the alleyway. And from there back into daylight for Bruce's meeting with Shreck.

So the timeline we end up with goes something like this:
•   Night 1: first Red Triangle gang attack, Selina is pushed out of a window
•   Day 2: the Penguin saves the Mayor's baby
•   Night 2: Bruce watches the news report about the Penguin on television
•   Day 3: the Penguin goes to city hall
•   Night 3: Batman patrols the streets
•   Day 4: the Penguin visits his parents' graves
•   Night 4: Catwoman's first fight
•   Day 5: Bruce's meeting with Shreck

So how did this error arise? Well, the day-to-night transition when Bruce is watching the news report is sheer clumsiness. I don't think it's actually meant to be night time. I reckon Burton just thought it would look cool if Wayne Manor was dark so he could light the fireplace and some stagehand set the clock accordingly. I expect the Penguin rescuing the Mayor's baby is meant to happen on the same day as his visit to city hall. If that's the case, then we can disregard the second night as a simple continuity error.

But that still leaves the other two nights. Where did they come from? Well unfortunately I can't seem to find the original script online anywhere, but I remember reading it years ago and noticing that the order of scenes was different from the finished film. Presumably Burton rearranged them in order to spread the action out a bit more, having Catwoman's first fight scene occur earlier in the film as a way of breaking up the 'talky' scenes. But he did it in a rather clumsy manner IMO.

What's particularly annoying about this reordering of events is that it resulted in a neat little scene between Bruce and Shreck being cut from the film entirely. The scene in question occurs immediately before their meeting. Bruce arrives at the office and checks out the broken window next to Selina's desk (which is only now being investigated, as this is meant to be the day after the 'accident'). Shreck spins some lie about one of the Red Triangle gang rioters hurling a brick through the window. But Bruce points out that there's no glass on the inside, and that the window was therefore broken from within. Shreck says "weird" and quickly changes the subject.

This scene was cool for a number of reasons. For one thing it's an extra Bruce Wayne scene in a film that is sorely lacking in them. Secondly it shows Bruce as an observant detective who can spot an inconsistency at a crime scene. It also tied into the subplot about Bruce figuring out what happened between Max and Selina; a subplot that was advanced further in the following scene where he spots the injury on Selina's head and asks her about it. But the scene directly references the first riot as taking place on the preceding night, so it had to be cut. I'm pretty sure they did film it though. If you watch the meeting scene you'll notice that Bruce and Max enter the office from the right side of the door, which is where Selina's desk is, rather than the left side of the door where the elevators are situated. There are also some publicity photos showing Walken looking out of the broken window during the daytime.





Cutting this scene resulted in another gaping plot hole: why did no one notice Selina's body had disappeared after two or three days? I think the shot of Max looking out of the window is meant to be him pondering this question, which makes sense if it's the very next day. But it doesn't make sense if two or three days have passed in the interim.

[johnnygobbs]

There is a massive continuity error concerning the time frame of events in this film. It's bothered me for years, so I'm glad someone's finally brought it up.

Yes, the meeting between Bruce Wayne and Max Shreck is meant to take place the day after the first Red Triangle gang riot. This was explicitly stated in the original script and Selina mentions it in the finished film where she talks about the events of "last night" in reference to Shreck pushing her out of the window. However, if we look at the preceding scenes it becomes clear that at least two days have passed since that fateful night.

I do agree that in theory this is a massive continuity error however, in practice I think the filmmakers get away with it.  I just checked the film again to see where Selina refers to the events of 'last night'.  Although she refers to the previous evening being a 'complete blur' that doesn't necessarily contradict the fact that two further days have elapsed since she was pushed out of the window.  Sure, in effect she's referring to the previous evening and her 'failure' to recollect its events as a means of a subtle threat to Max but for someone who has experienced a traumatic defenestration (is there any other kind?  ) the events of the last few days including the previous evening, where she introduced Catwoman to a would-be mugger/rapist, is probably a 'complete blur'.

Although going by the screenplay it's presumably not what the filmmakers intended I think the theory that Max's attempted murder of Selina occurred on Friday evening and Max and Bruce's meeting occurred two days later on the next business day, Monday, holds tight.  It even makes sense in the context of Bruce's aside about everyone but the 'bandits slacking off until New Year' since Friday tends to be most employees' last day at work before they go on vacation.

First of all we have the scene of the Penguin rescuing the Mayor's baby. This clearly takes place during the daytime. We then cut to a scene of Bruce Wayne watching the news report in Wayne Manor. The reporter states that the events being shown occurred "only minutes ago". And yet it's dark in Wayne Manor and the clock above the fireplace reads ten minutes past six. Since the latitude and longitude of Gotham City are meant to be roughly equal to those of New York, the sun would probably set around half past four during late December. Which means the daylight scene being broadcast on the television couldn't possibly have occurred "only minutes ago". It would have to have been several hours ago. So what we end up with is an illogical day-to-night transition of Ed Woodian proportions...

...So how did this error arise? Well, the day-to-night transition when Bruce is watching the news report is sheer clumsiness. I don't think it's actually meant to be night time. I reckon Burton just thought it would look cool if Wayne Manor was dark so he could light the fireplace and some stagehand set the clock accordingly. I expect the Penguin rescuing the Mayor's baby is meant to happen on the same day as his visit to city hall. If that's the case, then we can disregard the second night as a simple continuity error.

I agree with the second paragraph.  Although Wayne Manor is shrouded in darkness when Alfred is doing up the Christmas Tree bear in mind that this is Bruce Wayne's place we're talking about and the man is effectively a nocturnal creature.  Plus, the lights Alfred is decorating the tree with probably look more effective in the darkness.  It appears to be a pretty dark room anyway.  Going by the date scene between Bruce and Selina later on in the film I don't recall there being any windows in the room.

Also, do we know that the scene where Max encounters the crowd outside the Hall of Records takes place during the day?  We don't get an external long-shot of the Hall of Records to establish whether the scene is taking place at night or day, and although the medium-shot of Max scolding the journalist for 'not giving the Constitution a rest' is well-illuminated the scene is taking place within the heart of the city in a location that is presumably surrounded by many street lights. 

Like you point out, the film takes place in late-December in the Northern seaboard so except for a few scenes that take place between the hours of 9am and 3pm most scenes, including a large chunk of those that take place in the afternoon, are going to take place in the dark.

Cutting this scene resulted in another gaping plot hole: why did no one notice Selina's body had disappeared after two or three days? I think the shot of Max looking out of the window is meant to be him pondering this question, which makes sense if it's the very next day. But it doesn't make sense if two or three days have passed in the interim.

I agree that it's a great scene and that it's a pity it was deleted.  I particularly liked Max's reference to the 'carny Bolsheviks' and Bruce pointing out that the glass was on the inside of the building, although it seems remiss of the 'world's greatest detective' not to investigate further bearing in mind his particular dislike of Max.

In terms of what we're left with and the anomaly concerning Selina's disappearing body and Max's failure to check up on the corpse Max probably considers himself untouchable.  Another deleted scene has Chip drop in on his old man just another Max has pushed Selina out of the window with both Shreck Senior and Shreck Junior colluding in an excuse to explain Selina's 'suicide' should the police investigate (Max suggests PMS before agreeing with Chip's 'boyfriend trouble' suggestion).  Also, from such an immense height and with so many awnings between Selina's office and the ground it's unlikely anyone would be able to see into a small alleyway below whether Selina's body was still on the ground, especially during the night or almost any other time during late-December.

By the way, this is a great pic that I've never see before.  Where did you get it from? 

[Silver Nemesis]

Sorry, I should have posted screencaps along with my previous post. Unfortunately Photobucket is blocking all my images at the moment. Luckily I've just found a site that has a great collection of Batman Returns screencaps. They should shed some light on the matter.

Although going by the screenplay it's presumably not what the filmmakers intended I think the theory that Max's attempted murder of Selina occurred on Friday evening and Max and Bruce's meeting occurred two days later on the next business day, Monday, holds tight.  It even makes sense in the context of Bruce's aside about everyone but the 'bandits slacking off until New Year' since Friday tends to be most employees' last day at work before they go on vacation.

When Shreck catches her going through his files, Selina does say "I'm just boning up for your Bruce Wayne meeting in the morning". That, combined with her line about "last night" being a blur, suggests to me that the Wayne meeting was meant to take place the very next day. The weekend explanation would make more sense, but I don't think that's what Burton and Waters were getting at.

It appears to be a pretty dark room anyway.  Going by the date scene between Bruce and Selina later on in the film I don't recall there being any windows in the room.

At the beginning of the scene where Bruce is watching the news report there is a wide establishing shot of the room. You can see the windows behind the staircase. There's a little bit of moonlight shining through onto the clock (the shadows make it hard to tell which is the minute hand and which the hour hand, but it definitely looks to me like 18:10).



Compare that to a daytime scene later in the movie and you can see a clear difference in the amount of light shining through the windows.

Also, do we know that the scene where Max encounters the crowd outside the Hall of Records takes place during the day?  We don't get an external long-shot of the Hall of Records to establish whether the scene is taking place at night or day, and although the medium-shot of Max scolding the journalist for 'not giving the Constitution a rest' is well-illuminated the scene is taking place within the heart of the city in a location that is presumably surrounded by many street lights.

There is an overhead shot of the street where it looks like daylight. You can actually see a lamppost to the right of the shot, but there doesn't seem to be any light emanating from it.



You can also see white daylight through the windows when the Penguin is inside the building.



It's hard to be certain either way, but it looks like daytime to me. Especially if you compare the exterior to how it looks during the night time scene where Batman is patrolling the streets.



By the way, here's a good screencap that shows Bruce and Max entering the office from the side of the door next to Selina's workspace.

By the way, this is a great pic that I've never see before.  Where did you get it from?   

I've actually never seen that picture before myself. I just Googled "Christopher Walken Max Shreck" in the hope of finding that second picture, and there it was. It's amazing that we're still occasionally digging up these previously unseen pictures after all these years.

In the absence of a Goofs thread, I thought I'd just post a few more errors in the film. Certain users have been nitpicking every tiny flaw in Nolan's films recently, so I think it only fair to balance things out by nitpicking at Burton's films a bit too.

Let's start with the opening shot of the movie. We get a clear view of Tucker standing in the window upstairs.



We then cut to an interior shot and find that there's a large tree right outside the window. But there was no such tree in the previous shot.



During the scene where Selina makes her costume, she picks up a pair of blue scissors.



But in the very next shot they've turned into pink scissors.



During the first fight scene between Batman and Catwoman, their position on the rooftop changes in between shots. How do we know this? Keep an eye on the ladder in the background. In some shots they're right in front of it, in others it's right behind them. There is however only one ladder. Their position on the roof simply doesn't match up between shots.

When Batman is dangling from the roof, look down below and you can see Gotham plaza. There's the cathedral on the right. And there on the left is Shreck's department store. The same store that was blown up by Catwoman about a minute earlier.



Bruce puts his jacket on twice during one scene. First we see him slide one arm into the sleeve and begin putting his other arm through.



Then in the next shot he's putting his first arm through the sleeve.



I'll leave it there for now.

[johnnygobbs]

This site is excellent for HD screencaps of 'Batman Returns': http://movie-screencaps.com/batman-returns-1992/

As for your other points, I agree that the clock in Bruce Wayne's living room says 6.10 (presumably pm) which would suggest that it's dark outside it being late December in North America.  Consequently, whilst I don't necessarily think that's moonlight peaking through the curtains in the first screencap I do agree that it must be evening/dark when Bruce watches the news item of the Penguin 'rescuing' the mayor's baby.

However, I don't think the following screencaps of the exterior and interior of the Hall of Records are definitive in terms of time of day.  I think one has to allow for a degree of suspension of disbelief.  The scenes are presumably shot light to allow for full illumination.

My theory is still that there are two full days between Selina being pushed out the window and Bruce's meeting with Max.  I'll have to review Selina's line about 'boning up for the meeting in the morning'.  It's a stretch but even if she does say 'morning' she could still be referring to the next workday morning.

[lifesabitch]

Just to point out, on the table there's a whole bunch of scissors, multiple colors. She could have dropped and picked up the other one. It's not as if the scissors changed in mid-cutting.

[Silver Nemesis]

It's not as if the scissors changed in mid-cutting. 

Actually it's a lot like that. Watch from the 2:40 mark.

[lifesabitch]

You can barely see the color. 

[thecolorsblend]

By the way, this is a great pic that I've never see before.  Where did you get it from? 

For sure it was in the BR souvenir magazine. I own that and some other promo mag. Bought off the stands back then and still have them.