Two-Face

[The Joker]

Whenever I think of TLJ's Two-Face, I can't help but think of his girlfriends, Sugar and Spice, being right there along with him.



At the same time, Sugar and Spice also makes me think of the Riddler's henchwomen, also introduced in 1995, Query and Echo.

[johnnygobbs]

Does anyone know if Query and Echo were based on Sugar and Spice?

I always thought the two pairs were synonymous, especially since one character is blonde and the other is dark-haired.

And it is odd that they were both introduced in 1995, hence why I wonder if they were created in some type of tandem.

[The Joker]

I've wondered the same thing ever since I picked up a copy of Detective Comics Annual #8 back in 1995. From a drug store located within the local mall at that (hey remember those days?!?! *sigh*).

Being that DC Comics had to have received a copy of the Batman Forever script/story in order to produce the official movie/comic adaptation of the film (which I vaguely remember coming out in comic book stores a week or two before the movie even came out ... I distinctly remember getting the comic adaptation of Batman Returns, at a small magazine/book store, literally right before I saw the movie on opening day .... starting to feel old here jeez), I tend to lean towards there being at least some influence from the inclusion of Sugar & Spice, if even more from production photos rather than from the BF script, when it comes to the creation of Query & Echo.

Course, it's just speculation on my part, and don't have any proof of this. But the timing seems more than just coincidental. 

[The Dark Knight]

Could be coincidental. I think the idea works much better with Two Face as opposed to the Riddler, so the BF creative team made a wise decision in any case. I'm not sold on the idea of the Riddler having personal assistants. His crusade is a very different one. It's much more calculated and considered, devised in the silence of his lair. He has an ego like TLJ's Two-Face but it feels way more personal. He wouldn't want too many cooks diluting or distracting his vision. Two-Face started as the main threat of the film but by the end he was a passenger, joining Edward at Claw Island and probably becoming a slave to the box.

[johnnygobbs]

I personally think the two assistants work better with The Riddler than Two-Face (ignoring the 'two women for the two sides of Two-Face's personality' gimmick).

Two-Face, when portrayed properly (so not the goofy, exuberant Tommy Lee-Jones version) is a dark, brooding character consumed by a personal vendetta against injustice (and no longer particularly concerned with appearances), whereas The Riddler is a smart, yet egotistical, character who is desperate to prove his own intellectual superiority.  It therefore makes sense that he would surround himself with a pair of female lackies in order to boost his own ego and facilitate that sense of superiority.  He most likely has no amorous interest in them, being, along with The Scarecrow, one of Batman's most asexual rogues (I do like the idea that he has a latent homosexual crush on Batman/Bruce Wayne, as implied in Batman Forever, which is a significant driving factor in him needing to prove his superiority over an unrequited object of his affection), but just as Jim Carrey's Riddler uses Drew Barrymore's Sugar as an ornament to display the trappings of success (i.e. a beautiful woman) to the outside world, the comic-book Riddler needs Query and Echo by his side to demonstrate that he is a bigshot.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm mainly referring to the context of BF, but I do take your comments on board. Edward's plan was seemingly all devised in his apartment, before he had the haircut and introduced himself to Dent. That's the real man right there, with the rest being the spectacle playing out. Carreyler's hatred of Bruce feels more intense than Dent's hatred of Batman. I think the darker incarnations (which have been the recent trend) such as Earth One or the Arkham games are very much in the detached killer mould, with a focused narcissism. Carreyler embraced playboy persona aspects but he did remain his own man. He entered the world of crime as a loner and he remained that way, all the way to the Arkham prison cell.

[The Joker]

I personally think the two assistants work better with The Riddler than Two-Face (ignoring the 'two women for the two sides of Two-Face's personality' gimmick).

Two-Face, when portrayed properly (so not the goofy, exuberant Tommy Lee-Jones version) is a dark, brooding character consumed by a personal vendetta against injustice (and no longer particularly concerned with appearances), whereas The Riddler is a smart, yet egotistical, character who is desperate to prove his own intellectual superiority.  It therefore makes sense that he would surround himself with a pair of female lackies in order to boost his own ego and facilitate that sense of superiority.  He most likely has no amorous interest in them, being, along with The Scarecrow, one of Batman's most asexual rogues (I do like the idea that he has a latent homosexual crush on Batman/Bruce Wayne, as implied in Batman Forever, which is a significant driving factor in him needing to prove his superiority over an unrequited object of his affection), but just as Jim Carrey's Riddler uses Drew Barrymore's Sugar as an ornament to display the trappings of success (i.e. a beautiful woman) to the outside world, the comic-book Riddler needs Query and Echo by his side to demonstrate that he is a bigshot.

Makes sense, and from what I can recall, Riddler's relationship with both was rather nonerotic. I believe Query & Echo were also shown to be able to give answers to Ed's riddles, which, if anything, would atleast impress the guy who takes a lot of pride in that.

Another thing about Query & Echo's linkage with Sugar & Spice, is that there could very well be a case made for a "Comic Influence" being used on film with BF, and it coming full circle by re-introducing the original concept in comics. All in 1995 no less.

In the 1989 Secret Origins Special #1 (featuring Penguin, Two-Face, and Riddler), the notion of the Riddler having two hench women under his employment is briefly introduced in a photo.



However, it was Query and Probe rather than Query and Echo. I don't believe there was any other instances where this concept of Riddler having hench women was explored, until of course, in 1995 with the Detective Annual (where Probe was replaced with Echo) that was apart of the "Year One" stories that year. Corresponding with the debut of Sugar and Spice, in what was the biggest and successful comic book movie of that year.

[Silver Nemesis]

I'd not connected Sugar and Spice with Query and Probe/Echo before now. But when you lay out their history like that, it does seem like the movie might have inspired the comic creators to revive those characters back in 1995.

Speaking of Nygma, I noticed something rather amusing when I re-watched Batman Forever back in February. Other people might have spotted this before, but I hadn't. And since it's not worth creating a thread about, I'll just post it here.

It's Edward's glasses.

Edward models his appearance on Bruce's when he attends the NygmaTech party. The glasses he wears during that scene are clearly not the same glasses he wore earlier in the film.

They do however match the gold-rimmed glasses Bruce is wearing. I'm not sure if they're literally the same design, but they look near enough. Also note that Nygma has dyed and styled his hair to match Bruce's.

As soon as Nygma notices that Bruce has donned his glasses to watch the demonstration of The Box, he hastily puts on his own glasses for no apparent reason.

And as soon as Bruce takes them off again, Nygma follows suit. Seemingly for no other reason than to copy Bruce.

There's nothing in the script about Nygma mirroring Bruce's body language, and I don't know if it was Schumacher's idea or just something Carrey improvised. Either way, it's a funny little detail that highlights just how petty and competitive Nygma is concerning Bruce. If Bruce went out and shaved his head, Edward would probably go and do the same thing just to one-up him.

One of the central themes in Batman Forever is psychological duality and the conflict between the Jungian archetypes of the Self, the Shadow and the Persona. With Bruce, the Persona – the socially acceptable part of himself that he projects to the public – is the playboy. The Shadow – the dark and socially unacceptable side of himself – is obviously the obsessive vigilante Batman. The Self, as he finally realises towards the end of the film, is the harmonious combination of these two.

Nygma's Shadow is the mentally-unstable nerd embodied in the Riddler, but his Persona is modelled almost entirely on Bruce's Persona. He dresses like him, does his hair in the same style, tries to emulate his corporate success and even does a poor attempt at imitating him in public. Because of this, the Riddler's Self is even more fragmented than Bruce's, because the side of himself he projects to the public isn't even really him – it's a reflection of the qualities he admires and envies in Bruce Wayne.

I think Schumacher's Riddler is a more layered character than many viewers realise.

[thecolorsblend]

Nygma is basically a stalker. His admiration for Bruce transformed into outright hatred.

It's a rather intelligent use of the necessity of having two villains in the movie. Two-Face's had a grudge against Batman while the Riddler had it out for Bruce. While Two-Face's hatred for Batman was straight forward and pure, Nygma's feelings about Bruce are more complex.

But yes, he's a stalker.

[The Laughing Fish]

I've wondered the same thing ever since I picked up a copy of Detective Comics Annual #8 back in 1995. From a drug store located within the local mall at that (hey remember those days?!?! *sigh*).

I feel your pain. Back in those days, I used to buy some comics at a news agency inside the local supermarket as a kid. It wasn't until a year later that they stopped selling DC in favour of Marvel (specifically Spider-Man and X-Men) and Dark Horse. I guess such stores no longer selling comics can be a contributing factor behind the industry's current sales slump.

Makes sense, and from what I can recall, Riddler's relationship with both was rather nonerotic. I believe Query & Echo were also shown to be able to give answers to Ed's riddles, which, if anything, would atleast impress the guy who takes a lot of pride in that.

Another thing about Query & Echo's linkage with Sugar & Spice, is that there could very well be a case made for a "Comic Influence" being used on film with BF, and it coming full circle by re-introducing the original concept in comics. All in 1995 no less.

In the 1989 Secret Origins Special #1 (featuring Penguin, Two-Face, and Riddler), the notion of the Riddler having two hench women under his employment is briefly introduced in a photo.



However, it was Query and Probe rather than Query and Echo. I don't believe there was any other instances where this concept of Riddler having hench women was explored, until of course, in 1995 with the Detective Annual (where Probe was replaced with Echo) that was apart of the "Year One" stories that year. Corresponding with the debut of Sugar and Spice, in what was the biggest and successful comic book movie of that year.

Riddler's henchwomen also appeared in another novel called Batman: Riddler - The Riddle Factory, which was also published in 1995. The only difference is the other girl who worked with Query was called Quiz. In addition to being henchwomen, they also starred as hostesses in Edward Nigma's pirate TV game show that exposed celebrities' dirty secrets.

Back on-topic with Two-Face, I found this fan site dedicated to BF, and it uploaded scans from a magazine called Imagi-Movies. Joel Schumacher was quoted explaining why he didn't get Billy Dee Williams to return to play Harvey Dent.

I didn't consider Billy Dee Wiliams, because I see him as a hero, like Clark Gable. I had just worked with Tommy Lee Jones on THE CLIENT and thought he would be great.

Source: https://www.1995batman.com/2019/07/magazine-article-imagi-movies-vol-3-no_26.html

It's probably nothing new, but I couldn't shake off the idea of Williams playing an evil character either. I know someone told me he appeared as a villain in a film with Sylvester Stallone once, but I've never watched it.