Two-Face

[Edd Grayson]

To me, he was poorly written and TLJ wanted to be over-the-top so he could steal the spotlight away for Jim Carrey, and as a result we got a generic villain that is Two-Face in name only.

There was a scene deleted from the final cut with Two-Face escaping Arkham. It was replaced with Alfred asking Batman to take a sandwich.... shows just how far the WB would go to make a film more marketable. The only thing that I liked was his final phrase to Bruce, a hint at their friendship which was missing from the rest of the film.


I think the movie would've worked better with a serious Two-Face and campy Riddler.


Thoughts?

[johnnygobbs]

I pretty much agree with your entire post Edd.  As far as comic-book movies go I'm glad that TLJ had a chance to redeem himself with 'Captain America' where he was very well-cast as the military man who trains Steve Rogers.  However, as fine an actor as TLJ is he was dreadful in 'Batman Forever' IMHO.  Like you state, Two-Face should not have been portrayed in a campy manner and it's a pity that this version of Two-Face ultimately came across as a bad copy of Jack Nicholson's Joker.

To be fair to TLJ it was the writing of the character as much as the performance that was at fault.  Two-Face perhaps above any other Bat-villain requires sufficient screen-time given over to his back-story.  Without seeing what kind of man Two-Face was before his transformation we don't get a sense of the fundamental tragedy that drives this character.  Some argue that 'TDK' focused too much on Harvey Dent giving too little screen-time to a post-transformation Two-Face but be that as it may 'TDK' got the balance down far better than 'Batman Forever' which only merits an extremely brief TV flashback scene to a pre-Two Face Dent.  Perhaps if Schumacher had not decided that Billy Dee Williams was 'too heroic' to play Two-Face (thus fundamentally missing the essence of the one-time idealistic and crusading DA and the extent of his tragedy) it wouldn't have mattered that such scant screen-time was given over to the pre-Two Face Dent since we would have already identified with the character, and importantly Billy Dee Williams' specific portrayal of the character, from 'Batman '89'. 

[Edd Grayson]

I think TDK gave too little time to Two-Face as well, but it was arguably much better than Batman Forever. At least 2008 Two-Face would never flip the coin until he got what he wanted. TLJ looked silly doing that and it's something the real Two-Face would never do.

But the Batman TAS two-parter "Two-Face" still reigns supreme for me. It was awesome.

[thecolorsblend]

Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

[johnnygobbs]

Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Sorry but aesthetically TLJ is nothing like how I see Harvey Dent.  Sure he's got the black hair but that's hardly a defining factor.

Harvey Dent should be a crusading, decent but nevertheless somewhat preening and vain pretty boy IMHO who loses his once good-looks as well as his sanity when he is scarred by Boss Maroni.  TLJ was a craggy-faced old dude even by 1995.  I always thought Harvey was meant to be Bruce's contemporary or at least only a few years older.  Although BDW is over a decade older than Michael Keaton he's a handsome chap so I bought that they were of around the same generation and might even have been friends, possibly at college.  The same applies to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale who are only separated in age by a few years.

[thecolorsblend]

Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Sorry but aesthetically TLJ is nothing like how I see Harvey Dent.  Sure he's got the black hair but that's hardly a defining factor.

Harvey Dent should be a crusading, decent but nevertheless somewhat preening and vain pretty boy IMHO who loses his once good-looks as well as his sanity when he is scarred by Boss Maroni.  TLJ was a craggy-faced old dude even by 1995.  I always thought Harvey was meant to be Bruce's contemporary or at least only a few years older.  Although BDW is over a decade older than Michael Keaton he's a handsome chap so I bought that they were of around the same generation and might even have been friends, possibly at college.  The same applies to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale who are only separated in age by a few years.

Mmm.

Good thing I mentioned the aesthetics of "Two Face" and not "Harvey Dent" then, right?

[johnnygobbs]

Eh, aesthetically TLJ is more in line with what I want to see from Two Face. As far as characterization goes, neither rings entirely true... but Schumacher's is much closer to the mark than Nolan's ever thought about being. Nolan's Two Face came off as a guy who wanted a pound of flesh. Schumacher suggested a split personality. Neither of 'em is definitive but TLJ has it by a mile in my book.

Sorry but aesthetically TLJ is nothing like how I see Harvey Dent.  Sure he's got the black hair but that's hardly a defining factor.

Harvey Dent should be a crusading, decent but nevertheless somewhat preening and vain pretty boy IMHO who loses his once good-looks as well as his sanity when he is scarred by Boss Maroni.  TLJ was a craggy-faced old dude even by 1995.  I always thought Harvey was meant to be Bruce's contemporary or at least only a few years older.  Although BDW is over a decade older than Michael Keaton he's a handsome chap so I bought that they were of around the same generation and might even have been friends, possibly at college.  The same applies to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale who are only separated in age by a few years.

Mmm.

Good thing I mentioned the aesthetics of "Two Face" and not "Harvey Dent" then, right?

  Fair dos.  But that bright pick/purple plastic Power Rangers villain makeup TLJ sports as Two-Face doesn't work for me either.

But out of curiosity what is it about TLJ's look as Two-Face that works for you better than Aaron Eckhart in 'TDK'?

[thecolorsblend]

But out of curiosity what is it about TLJ's look as Two-Face that works for you better than Aaron Eckhart in 'TDK'?

First, the realism angle. Somebody that injured is going to be "crippled" (in the other sense of the word) for life. The pain would be unsupportable, Dent would probably still be in shock after his ordeal (certainly he'd be too doped up on painkillers we've never even heard of) and his eye (missing an eyelid as it is) would rot and fall out long before he settled Maroni's hash. Nolan and his fans don't get to play the "it's a comic book" and/or "suspend disbelief" cards here either because (1) he was the one with the bright idea of setting this stuff in the real world; all I'm expecting is that he play by his own rules (2) it's the filmmaker's job to enable the audience to suspend their disbelief; it's not the audience's responsibility to create that for themselves and (3) that excuse works for stuff like glasses tricking people into believing you're someone else as a condition precedent for buying into the story; if you can't believe that, the rest of the film won't work for you either. But SOD can't cover you on basic clinical facts in a story where everything else is pretty realistic down the line.

To me, the acid thing works because who's to say there weren't other chemicals mixed in that not only burned his face but also colored and disfigured the skin tissue? In fact, I'd give TLJ's Two Face an extra nod for the character's skin being purple, which seems more "naturalistic" (given what we're talking about) than the green skin he had in comics for decades. Worst case, Schumacher is in a position to use the "it's a comic book" line because, hey, it is. He's being entirely consistent with his own reality. "So you can believe Batman can swing around from a helicopter without his arms being ripped from their sockets but the scarred half of Two Face takes you out of the story???"

My preference isn't even competitive when you come down to it. Game, set, match: Jones.

[Edd Grayson]

I have to admit, those Two-Face posters for Batman Forever look great. But when you actually see him acting up in the film....

[johnnygobbs]

Well I can't say I agree with you colors but I respect your POV.  It's not a popular one but its rarity makes it all the more interesting and genuine.  Even though I'm a fan of the Nolan films I still get tired of the 'In Nolan We Trust' mantra which dictates that his Batman films are beyond criticism so it's always refreshing to read the opinions of someone who prefers the Schumacher films.