The next Batman

[BatmAngelus]

Great analysis, Silver Nemesis.

Personally, I like both Hamm and Caviezel for the role and would be happy to see either of them in the cowl. I think their current shows make it easier to see Hamm as the playboy Bruce Wayne and Caviezel in the Batsuit since the former plays a suave womanizer and the latter plays a badass with fighting skills, but I've seen scenes of Hamm's Mad Men character in a dark and intense mode in certain episodes while I recall Caviezel putting on the rich aristocrat act in The Count of Monte Cristo (And I think he'd play the playboy Bruce smoother than he plays Reese in that Person of Interest "date night" clip that SN posted since the Reese character is meant to be uncomfortable and out of his element).

Here's an idea for a future flick: TDKR/Kingdom Come-type World's Finest movie with Jon Hamm and Jim Caviezel.  Since Johnny Gobbs prefers Hamm as Batman and Caviezel as Superman and Silver Nemesis prefers Hamm as the Alex Ross Superman and Caviezel as Batman, I'll leave it up to you guys to envision who'll play who 

[johnnygobbs]

Great analysis, Silver Nemesis.

Personally, I like both Hamm and Caviezel for the role and would be happy to see either of them in the cowl. I think their current shows make it easier to see Hamm as the playboy Bruce Wayne and Caviezel in the Batsuit since the former plays a suave womanizer and the latter plays a badass with fighting skills, but I've seen scenes of Hamm's Mad Men character in a dark and intense mode in certain episodes while I recall Caviezel putting on the rich aristocrat act in The Count of Monte Cristo (And I think he'd play the playboy Bruce smoother than he plays Reese in that Person of Interest "date night" clip that SN posted since the Reese character is meant to be uncomfortable and out of his element).

Here's an idea for a future flick: TDKR/Kingdom Come-type World's Finest movie with Jon Hamm and Jim Caviezel.  Since Johnny Gobbs prefers Hamm as Batman and Caviezel as Superman and Silver Nemesis prefers Hamm as the Alex Ross Superman and Caviezel as Batman, I'll leave it up to you guys to envision who'll play who 

Good point about 'The Count of Monte Cristo'.  Although Caviezel was playing the poor boy in that film I do recall him doing a decent 'fake aristocrat'.

Also, in an ideal world a 'Kingdom Come' adaptation or something similar featuring 'older' members of the JLA would be awesome.

[Silver Nemesis]

Good post Silver Nemesis, but none of that seems to address the problem I have with Caviezel as Batman as opposed to Superman, which is as physically well suited as he is for the latter part he doesn't seem to exude the arrogant and to-the-manor-born self-assuredness and slight cockiness I associate with Bruce Wayne and which of all the actors who have so far played him I feel only Christian Bale really caught.  All the stills you posted of Caviezel solidifies his persona as a sensitive brooder.  Like Keaton's permanently haunted Bruce I can certainly see him as a man still reeling from the childhood trauma of his parents' death.  What I can't see is the dashing, charismatic playboy and 'richest man in Gotham' which sets Bruce apart from Superman/Clark (especially Cavill's sensitive drifter version of Clark).  I would still like to see the 'B:TAS' version of Bruce Wayne brought to life and of all the actions so far linked with the part Jon Hamm, despite or perhaps partly because of his occasional comedic cheesiness, comes closest.

If you want evidence of Caviezel's ability to play a smarmy overbearing douche, look no further than the Australian horror movie Long Weekend (2008). In that film he portrays a smug, self-absorbed urbanite who drinks heavily, kills animals for fun, and is sexually aggressive towards his emotionally vulnerable wife. Unfortunately I can't find any clips from this movie on YouTube other than the trailer and this tiny snippet:

Which... doesn't help illustrate the point I'm trying to make at all. So I'll just have to ask you to take my word for it that he can play a smug, smarmy playboy when the script calls for it.

But I don't want Wayne to be portrayed like that in the next film. He's certainly not like that in the vast majority of comics. I'd prefer a depiction closer to the Bronze Age Wayne: a charming, suave philanthropist possessing an alluring air of mystery about him. And Caviezel's performance in The Count of Monte Cristo was perfectly calibrated for that. Unfortunately I can't find many pertinent clips of that either. Only this scene where he proposes a toast in honour of Henry Cavill's character:

That's exactly how I'd want him to play Wayne. He's certainly a lot smoother and more natural there than Bale's over-the-top interpretation.

If anything, I'd say they overdid Wayne's smarminess in Batman Begins. I understand that they wanted to emphasise a side of his personality that had been underplayed in the previous films, but they made him far too obnoxious in Batman Begins. Very seldom has he been portrayed in such an exaggerated manner in the comics. The scene which bugs me the most is the one where he buys the restaurant and starts frolicking in the pool. He comes across less like an idle aristocrat and more like a 'new money' guttersnipe rubbing his wealth in everyone's faces; some yuppie who struck big at the racetrack and wants to make sure all the 'one percenters' know about it.

I also didn't like the fact they showed Bruce chugging down alcohol in the restaurant. The Bruce in the comics does not drink (with rare exceptions, such as The Dark Knight Returns). They corrected this in The Dark Knight where they showed him raising a glass to toast Harvey, only to discreetly pour the drink over the balcony when no one was looking. But the way he was pouring them back in Begins was inconsistent with the character's attitude to alcohol in the comics. And it placed him under unnecessary public scrutiny.

Ultimately the function of the playboy persona is to deflect attention, not to attract it. If Bruce projects the image of a devil may care eccentric who pulls crazy stunts in public, that's only going to make people suspicious of him. Whereas if he projects the image of a soft, idle layabout who's too self-absorbed to care about what's happening in his city, then no one would think to connect him with the hardened vigilante that's prowling Gotham on a nightly basis.

I can't say I remember Kevin Conroy ever playing Wayne like Bale did in Batman Begins. Conroy's Wayne was always a smooth laid-back gentleman who spoke in a quiet, calm tone of voice. He never came across as a sleazy or overbearing Paris Hilton type. I'd say he was closer to the Val Kilmer Wayne than Bale's. It was only because of the chicks throwing glasses of wine in his face and chewing him out for not returning their phone calls that we got the impression of him being a playboy at all. And that's exactly how I think it should be played.

Personally I would never cast an actor as Batman based primarily on their ability to portray a comedic playboy anyway. That would be like casting a Superman actor based on their ability to play a funny bumbling reporter. It's the easiest and least important aspect of the character to portray on screen. And since they disregarded the bumbling element of Clark Kent in Man of Steel, I'm expecting them to abandon, or at least tone down, the playboy element of Bruce Wayne. They've made it clear they're drawing most of their inspiration from The Dark Knight Returns, and there isn't even a hint of the playboy persona in that entire book.

In fact there are many classic Batman comics that omit the playboy act altogether. Alan Moore wrote four stories featuring Batman in the eighties:

•   'For the Man Who Has Everything...' (Superman Annual #11, 1985)
•   'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?' (Superman #423/Action Comics #583, September 1986)
•   'Mortal Clay' (Batman Annual #11, 1987)
•   The Killing Joke (1988)

The one thing all these stories have in common is that Bruce Wayne doesn't appear in any of them. Batman only appears unmasked on one page in The Killing Joke. Aside from that, Moore ignored Wayne altogether and focused solely on Batman. And there are plenty of other classic stories where Bruce Wayne doesn't appear. You can have a great Batman story without Bruce Wayne, but you can't have a great Batman story without Batman. Like I say, I can understand the necessity for emphasising the playboy act in Batman Begins because it had been downplayed in the earlier films. But now we've seen it, let's have a more balanced representation of the character. One that more accurately represents how Wayne is depicted in the vast majority of comics.

Bale, for all his strengths, was not a great Batman IMO. A good Bruce Wayne, yes. But his Batman was average at best and laughable at worst. He got too hung up on trying to demarcate between the three main facets of the character: the private Wayne, the public Wayne, and Batman. Ultimately only his private Wayne came across as natural and believable. In an effort to differentiate the other two personas, he overplayed them to the point where they became over-the-top caricatures rather than compelling and verisimilar alter egos. The next Batman actor needs to approach the role with more subtlety, even if that means lessening the distinction between the three personas. At least that's what I think.

Here's an idea for a future flick: TDKR/Kingdom Come-type World's Finest movie with Jon Hamm and Jim Caviezel.  Since Johnny Gobbs prefers Hamm as Batman and Caviezel as Superman and Silver Nemesis prefers Hamm as the Alex Ross Superman and Caviezel as Batman, I'll leave it up to you guys to envision who'll play who   

Honestly, I wouldn't cast either of them as Superman. Besides Hamm's aforementioned facial resemblance to the Ross Superman, neither of them is right for the part. They're both physically closer to Bruce Wayne than Clark Kent. And their voices are wrong for Superman too. Hamm's is too gravelly (Superman shouldn't sound like a smoker). Likewise Caviezel's is too low and husky. They're both good actors, so they probably could pull it off if they had to...

...but no, they're both better suited to Batman. And if they were in a movie together they'd both have to play Batman, but from alternate universes. I'd cast Hamm as the Golden Age Earth-Two Wayne; the lantern-jawed, pipe-smoking crusader who married Selina Kyle and succeeded Gordon as police commissioner.

And Caviezel would play the Bronze Age Earth-One Wayne; the athletic, globe-trotting philanthropist who served as a member of the Justice League and was ultimately reborn as the Modern Age Wayne.

But let's be honest. If we're talking the Kingdom Come Batman, there's one actor who was clearly born to play him. You all know who I'm talking about, but nobody wants to be the first to say it...
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[johnnygobbs]

I agree with you about Bale's slightly OTT 'douchiness' which is why I cited the 'B:TAS' version of Wayne as my ideal.  Whereas Bale's version was clearly a man trying a little too hard to 'put on' a rich idiot act, the 'B:TAS' version is a relaxed, publically self-assured man with no evident chip on his shoulder.  Somebody who displays the easy confidence of a man who was born to the manor (and who suffers no visible torment of his childhood trauma).  That's why your reference to Caviezel's performance as a 'smarmy, overbearing douche' in "Long Weekend" might not necessarily address the concerns I have about his suitability to the part.  Basically, I would ideally like to see a seemingly angst-free Bruce; almost an anti-Peter Parker and a certainly a contrast to the traditional version of the bumbling outsider Clark Kent or even Cavill's brooding, self-effacing version of that character.

I suppose by that rationale George Clooney, your ideal pick for a 'Kingdom Come' version of Batman/Bruce Wayne, should have been the perfect Batman back in 1997 but arguably Clooney was too relaxed in the part and didn't do enough to differentiate the character he was playing from his own real-life persona.  The fact that he was poorly served by a horrendous screenplay and misguided direction didn't help either.