The Dark Knight Rises compared to Batman Returns

[johnnygobbs]

Ok but you do know that Harvey would've still killed him and probably everyone else ? I mean, that character flipped the coin until he got the result he wanted, it's not like he could be trusted.

Good point.  Harvey wasn't to be trusted but it might have stolen some time for people to get away.  After all, Batman was the one he wanted.

[Edd Grayson]

But then there would be no one to stop Harvey and Nygma...

[johnnygobbs]

But then there would be no one to stop Harvey and Nygma...

Batman created Harvey and Bruce Wayne created Nygma.  With Bruce out of the way Nygma wouldn't need to take his revenge, would he?

[Edd Grayson]

Okay, I agree with that. But more criminals would arise and who would protect Gotham?

I still have a problem that Harvey wanted to get Batman and not Sal Maroni. Going way off topic, but it's the same as the Scorpion in Spidey TAS, in one of his appearances, instead of going after JJ Jameson, the man who created him in this continuity, went after dr Stillwell, who was just the one who pulled the trigger.

[johnnygobbs]

Okay, I agree with that. But more criminals would arise and who would protect Gotham?

I still have a problem that Harvey wanted to get Batman and not Sal Maroni. Going way off topic, but it's the same as the Scorpion in Spidey TAS, in one of his appearances, instead of going after JJ Jameson, the man who created him in this continuity, went after dr Stillwell, who was just the one who pulled the trigger.

Like Two-Face killing everyone but the Joker in TDK...   I didn't entirely buy Two-Face's descent into madness and obsession with random justice as much as I love TDK particularly Aaron Eckhart's performance so when he chose to let the Joker go and instead kill the other minor players in Rachel's death and his transformation it didn't entirely ring true.

I also never understood why he pointed the gun and flipped the coin for whether he'd live or die before he 'tried' Gordon.  What if the coin had landed on the scarred side?

Anyway, didn't Batman partly create most of his enemies in Gotham?

[Edd Grayson]

Two-face would've shot himself? But then how he could "judge" Batman and Gordon? It was just a show-off move from the filmmakers.

Yes, Batman did create most of enemies and most of them are like him in a way. German expressionism...

[johnnygobbs]

Two-face would've shot himself? But then how he could "judge" Batman and Gordon? It was just a show-off move from the filmmakers.

I don't know about that...but I guess it must have given Gordon a chance to be 'let off' if Two-Face shot himself before he could 'judge' them.  But surely if everyone 'deserved to be judged' he should have left himself to the end.

[Edd Grayson]

My main problem is this: Harvey IS NOT "chosen" by anyone to become Two-Face, because it contradicts the very idea of chance that Harvey Dent stands for.

[The Dark Knight]

Joker check this out, awesome:

Very cool. I've seen the scene before, but the use of Goldenthal's score is a nice addition.
I like the scene, and would one day like to see all those deleted scenes included like Spider-Man 2.1, etc.
I agree it comes off a little goofy, but the giant bat is no doubt expressionism on Bruce's part. Exaggerated reality.

[JokerMeThis]

That's a great scene with the giant bat. I thought the book said that Bruce wanted to see a movie but Thomas and Martha wanted to do something else so Bruce would have to see his cartoon another time. Is that correct? If that's the case then what does this have to do with the night of the Wayne murders? It happened another night then didn't it?

And what does Bruce say? "It was my fault" or "it wasn't my fault".

As for the giant bat, that is one of the scariest things I've ever seen in a movie, especially once we see that it's bigger than Bruce is. In reality there was probably just a normal sized bat and what we see is symbolic or in Bruce's imagination. The giant bat and him standing up to it and making it stop probably symbolizes Bruce overcoming his guilt or remembering that he is Batman. What do other people think?