The Dark Knight Returns

[The Dark Knight]

A quote which probably goes through Batman's mind regarding any future Super problem:

"We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations." –Charles R. Swindoll.

[BatmAngelus]

That poster from Comic Book Resources has a lot of great points, Silver Nemesis, and it just goes to show how overused the trope's become since TDKR, not to mention that I think both The Batman and The Brave and the Bold shows did the same thing.  (I also noticed that the poster didn't even bother with the TDKSA one where Batman had Kryptonite boxing gloves).

Moving on from the Batman/Superman fights, a couple other things:

- Was this series initially just titled "The Dark Knight" but then altered to The Dark Knight Returns when published in TPB form?  I've heard this mentioned before, but since the individual covers I've seen only have the titles of the volumes (i.e. The Dark Knight Falls), I haven't found evidence of this.  What do you guys remember?

- Jason Todd is mentioned to have been killed on duty, but it's not stated how.  Even though the Joker would do it years later in A Death in the Family, there's no confirmation of this in the story and you would think Batman would have brought it up in his internal monologue if Joker had been the culprit.  Still, I've heard rumors that Frank Miller did actually plan to have the Joker as the one who killed Jason.  Anyone know if this was true?

[thecolorsblend]

That poster from Comic Book Resources has a lot of great points, Silver Nemesis, and it just goes to show how overused the trope's become since TDKR, not to mention that I think both The Batman and The Brave and the Bold shows did the same thing.  (I also noticed that the poster didn't even bother with the TDKSA one where Batman had Kryptonite boxing gloves).

I'd give TBATB a bit of a pass because it clearly sets up that Batman was on borrowed time and only Superman returning to his senses prevented Batman from taking a trip to the sun via the Kryptonian Express.

- Was this series initially just titled "The Dark Knight" but then altered to The Dark Knight Returns when published in TPB form?  I've heard this mentioned before, but since the individual covers I've seen only have the titles of the volumes (i.e. The Dark Knight Falls), I haven't found evidence of this.  What do you guys remember?

Wikipedia says it was originally titled "Batman: The Dark Knight". I've heard that from a few sources myself.

- Jason Todd is mentioned to have been killed on duty, but it's not stated how.  Even though the Joker would do it years later in A Death in the Family, there's no confirmation of this in the story and you would think Batman would have brought it up in his internal monologue if Joker had been the culprit.  Still, I've heard rumors that Frank Miller did actually plan to have the Joker as the one who killed Jason.  Anyone know if this was true?

Hadn't heard that but as a kid I always read it was the Joker who'd killed him... based exclusively on A Death in the Family and nothing else. These days, I like that it's ambiguous. You can believe that the Joker did it if you want or if you like the idea of an alternate history to go along with this alternate "future", it can be something else.

[Silver Nemesis]

 

Wikipedia says it was originally titled "Batman: The Dark Knight". I've heard that from a few sources myself.

That's what I've heard. The Dark Knight Returns was only the title of the first book. But all four books had the phrase The Dark Knight in their titles, so that was used to refer to the series as a whole.

Here's a moderately interesting titbit some people might not be aware of: Carrie Kelly was allegedly inspired by Jill St John's character, Molly, from the sixties TV show episodes 'Hi Diddle Riddle' and 'Smack in the Middle'. Molly was the Riddler's moll. She disguised herself as Robin to infiltrate the Batcave.

She was notable for being one of the few characters to actually die in the sixties TV show. The poor deluded girl...

[Silver Nemesis]

There's an oft overlooked Easter egg in the first issue of this book where one of the criminals mentions someone called Turk who claims to have killed Batman.

Long time Frank Miller fans will know Turk as a lowlife crook and sometime-informant from the Daredevil comics. He appeared frequently throughout Miller and Janson's run in the early eighties and has been known to make similar BS claims about having taken out Daredevil. Note the Batman 89 reference in the following example (from Kevin Smith's Daredevil Vol 2 #6).

[The Dark Knight]

Interesting. I didn't know that.

TDK Returns is basically my Batman bible.

I like it so much because:

Gotham is a hellhole with little hope.
Batman's age amplifies his wisdom and experience.
Batman is also more aggressive and talks smack like a boss.
Bruce really is a tortured loner with many years worth of mental burden.
The Batman persona never, ever leaves Bruce's psyche, regardless of age.
Age doesn't change the fact Bruce will always be a trauma effected child.
Bruce's obsession borders on the psychotic.
Batman may lose battles, but he always wins the war - eg. the mutant leader.
Batman and Joker are kindred spirits at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Batman doesn't need the Joker, but the Joker needs Batman.
Batman is an outsider and often fights the system despite his crusade for good.
Batman is equally inspirational as Superman to the masses but in a different way.
Under the right circumstances, Batman can achieve the impossible.
Batman always has a back up plan.

It just ticks a lot of boxes for me. I love the fact he's a pissed off Clint Eastwood type.

[The Laughing Fish]

My relationship with The Dark Knight Returns has been polarizing. I remember when I first read it, I really enjoyed the first half the story, but hating everything after Batman's triumph over the Mutant Leader. I used to believe Batman had become too dark to the point he had become a total jerk, specifically his treatment of Carrie and distaste for Superman.

But over the years I slowly reached a new found appreciation and a better understanding of Batman's journey. Batman was never mistreating Carrie, he served more a Drill Sargeant role to keep her mind focused, which makes sense because of the fact that crimefighting is a matter of life and death. As much as Gotham City needs a Batman, it needs Robin too. Batman's distaste for Superman wasn't born out of nothing, he was frustrated that Clark submitted to the US government and stood between Bruce and his style of maintaining order while Gotham City suffered a city wide blackout, which was indirectly caused by Superman. For all the complaints about Batman inspiring psychopaths, it was his brand of justice that kept the city safe. There are still a few things about TDKR I don't care for, the way Alfred dies, but all in all I've come to terms with the whole story with a greater appreciation. I should mention that the two-part animated film did wonders for my change of heart too.

Which makes it even more ironic that as I began to fully appreciate DKR, I see more and more people online criticising it nowadays, and as many did with The Killing Joke, a lot of them are calling it overrated too. It appears that so many people are suddenly tired of the bleak, hardened Batman. Why is that?

[The Dark Knight]

Yes, the story continued, and poorly, but I like the dramatic finality of TDK Returns.

I still think of it as a one-shot with monumental plot beats.

Most of the classic villains were replaced by the next generation.
Gordon finally retired as police commissioner.
Batman and Joker had their last ever confrontation.
Alfred died.
Wayne Manor and the batcave were destroyed.
Bruce was thought dead by the world.

I also love that TDK Returns is full of social commentary with the talking heads segments. Seeing this play out during the Day of the Dead montage in Dawn of Justice was great. It adds realism to fantastical scenarios in a way that I can enjoy.

In TDK Returns Batman is an alpha male who doesn't back down for anybody. He's willing to go into a mudhole just to prove a point and make a statement. During the mutant leader fight he took his cape off. This wasn't about looking cool or heroic. This was about making you respect and fear him, even though you hate him. In my opinion, that fight is everything the second Bane fight in TDK Rises should've been.

I first read TDK Returns as a young kid. I'm guessing as an eight year old. I literally walked into a comic store with my father and asked for this specific book because I'd heard it was a classic. I didn't know anything of its dark tone. I didn't really comprehend the book's greatness until I grew older.

[Silver Nemesis]

I've always maintained there are two kinds of Batman fan: those who like the invincible/faultless incarnation who never loses, and those who like the more flawed human version who sometimes gets hurt and makes mistakes. I like the perfect/flawless version of Batman when it comes to comedic interpretations, but I prefer the more flawed, vulnerable incarnation for dark/serious interpretations.

TDKR is one of the best examples of the flawed Batman functioning in a serious context. This Batman retains strength, intellect and weaponry from his youth, but no longer has his speed, agility or stamina. Part of the appeal of this book for me is seeing how Bruce uses his strengths to compensate for his limitations. And at the end of the day, isn't that what Batman's all about: a flawed human with no superpowers who uses his skills and intellect to level the playing field against impossible odds?

TDKR always reminds me of those old movies Charles Bronson made in the seventies and eighties. Even when he was aged in his fifties and sixties, Bronson was still jacked and capable of dismantling young punks half his age. He had that same veteran badass quality as the TDKR Batman.

Death Wish III (1985) in particular always reminds me of TDKR. You've got the cult-like street gang with its psychotic leader terrorising the city. Then the aging vigilante returns to protect the innocent and punish the scum polluting the streets.

I can't help thinking Miller was inspired by films like this, as well as Eastwood's later Dirty Harry movies, when he wrote TDKR. Miller definitely cited Sudden Impact (1983) as an influence.

[The Dark Knight]

I've always maintained there are two kinds of Batman fan: those who like the invincible/faultless incarnation who never loses, and those who like the more flawed human version who sometimes gets hurt and makes mistakes. I like the perfect/flawless version of Batman when it comes to comedic interpretations, but I prefer the more flawed, vulnerable incarnation for dark/serious interpretations.

Same. I do like both styles. It just depends on the mood I'm in at the particular time. BTAS/JL/Beyond is my number one animated Batman saga and probably always will be. But after that I have the Brave and the Bold in second place, no question. They captured the lighter portrayal of Batman how just I like it. He's the wise genius/know it all of the Adam West series. He's played straight and has sincerity. That's something I feel didn't click with Clooney's version. I felt like he was too smug and lacked presence. That's the thing with Batman - light or dark, he still needs to be believably portrayed. What Adam West did wasn't easy (he made it look easy) and I think people undersell his contribution at times.

Light or dark, I love this character.