The Dark Knight Returns

[thecolorsblend]

I've seen people saying Batman would stand with "mostly peaceful" rioters who loot and burn their communities, which is the worst take ever. Batman is all about maintaining law and order.

In TDK Returns, the power goes out and the situation is exploited by those who seek to raze Gotham. Batman doesn't just throw his arms up in the air and let it happen - he rides in and sorts it out. "Thanks to Batman and his vigilante gang, Gotham's streets are safe, unless you try to commit a crime."

The lesson: if you don't assert control EARLY you lose control. Mob rule and lawlessness are unacceptable. 

In 2020, left wing extremists have taken over part of a major city and anointed a 'warlord' to run it. Arkham City is now a reality. A fear of the mainstream media and being called 'brutal fascists' allows this to happen.

If Police are not allowed to engage criminals they may as well not exist. Why would you be an officer if it means being a punching bag? They should resign. Which leaves things up to the decent common man.

"Like the Gestapo, they moved in on us – Batman and that brat army of his, you'd have thought we were criminals'.

Sitting back as the world burns is shameful. Don't fear a street war, fear passivity.

I posted some pages from TDKR where Batman and the Sons Of Batman restore order to Gotham after the blackout. Anybody who thinks Batman would bench himself and his team in the middle of something like this doesn't understand what the character is all about.

Another thing is the Punisher. Some writer whose name I'm intentionally forgetting wrote some real puffy, try-hard scene where the Punisher lashes out at the cops who look up to him and envy the freedom he's given himself. It's a scene so idiotic that it's truly beyond parody.

But in the final analysis, I think it's mistaken to look to fictional characters as moral guides in times like this. Precisely because they can be written to say whatever some hackjob writer wants them to say. I don't think Batman would tolerate random violence but I can't prove that. And it doesn't matter anyway. Decent people shouldn't tolerate random violence. And I think that's what should matter.

[The Dark Knight]

Anybody who thinks Batman would bench himself and his team in the middle of something like this doesn't understand what the character is all about.

Agreed.

But in the final analysis, I think it's mistaken to look to fictional characters as moral guides in times like this. Precisely because they can be written to say whatever some hackjob writer wants them to say. I don't think Batman would tolerate random violence but I can't prove that. And it doesn't matter anyway. Decent people shouldn't tolerate random violence. And I think that's what should matter.

Definitely. TDK Returns aligns my with own existing feeling with such situations. I don't need a comic or a movie to tell me what I myself feel. It's very important to hold on to that intuition in a changing world. Looting and burning is bad, and it needs to be shut down yesterday.

When cosplayers dress up as Batman and enter such an environment to lend their support, THEY are bringing the character to the forefront, and stating what they believe said characters stand for. Which goes to your 'it depends on who is writing the story' comment.

If the discussion is now to be had, these hellhole scenes are straight out of JOKER - I believe they have their characters mixed up. If writers had Batman and other characters supporting such anarchy it would be a distortion of their spirit FROM MY POINT OF VIEW. But given who writes this content, and the eagerness to push THEIR politics, I believe it's all on the table now, disappointingly.

[Silver Nemesis]

I've been trying to imagine if a film adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns had been released at the same time as the book, or immediately afterwards, then who would have starred in it? Which actors would have been not only right for the roles, but also the appropriate age at the time? Here's the cast I came up with. The pictures I've chosen for each actor are all taken from films or TV episodes released in 1986 to show what they looked like around the time TDKR was published. I'll note the title of each film/TV show next to each actor's name along with their age in 1986.

Bruce Wayne – Clint Eastwood (Heartbreak Ridge) – 56 years old.

James Gordon – Charles Bronson (Murphy's Law) – 65 years old.

Carrie Kelley – Winona Ryder (Lucas) – 15 years old.

Alfred Pennyworth – Peter Cushing (Biggles) – 73 years old.

Ellen Yindel – Linda Hamilton (Black Moon Rising) – 30 years old.

Harvey Dent – John Saxon (Hands of Steel) – 50 years old.

Mutant Leader – Pete Koch (Heartbreak Ridge) – 24 years old.

Dr Bartholomew Wolper – Elliot Gould (The Twilight Zone: The Misfortune Cookie) – 48 years old. 

Joker – Jack Nicholson (Heartburn) – 49 years old

Bruno – Brigitte Nielsen (Cobra) – 23 years old.

The Mayor – Glenn Shadix – although he was acting before 1986, Shadix didn't have any screen credits that year, so this picture is from Beetlejuice (1988). He would have been 34 in 1986.

Superman – Christopher Reeve – Reeve also didn't have any screen credits in 1986, but here he is one year later in Superman IV, which was shot in '86. He would have been 34 in 1986.

David Endocrine – David Letterman (duh) – 36 years old

I'm drawing a blank on who could have played Selina Kyle back then, but I'm happy with the rest. For a director, I think perhaps Walter Hill or James Cameron would have been a good choice at the time.

[thecolorsblend]

As drawn in TDKR, Selina is a bit... yeah.

So I'd sidestep that by casting someone who seems right even if it means stabbing Miller's depiction of her right in the back.

For openers, literally the only reason I'm not suggesting Faye Dunaway is because she'd done Supergirl just a few years earlier and didn't exactly cover herself in glory in the process. I'm also eliminating Valerie Harper since she was more known as a comedic actress.

Also removed from consideration is Adrienne Barbeau. Because, no matter how perfect her voice obviously is, she always looked kind of manly if you ask me.

So I'll split the difference by nominating Lesley Ann Warren:

Clue, 1985

She also has no feature film credit in 1986, interestingly enough. TV film tho so hmm.

Now, Lesley Ann Warren did her fair share of comedy as well. But she also did more dramatic stuff than I suspect she'll ultimately be remembered for.

It is true that she skews significantly younger than Eastwood. By more than a decade and a half. But still, I can put that down to the fact that dammit, Catwoman should be hot. And she was quite the looker even getting into the 1990s. So I put forward Warren as a passable Catwoman in a 1986-era TDKR film.

But if Warren is too much to bear, well, there's always Raquel Welch.

[Silver Nemesis]

I always thought Barbeau was quite attractive in a husky girl-next-door kind of way.

I did consider her for the role of Selina, but since she was only 41 in 1986 I figured she was a bit too young. I also discounted Dunaway for the same reason, as she would have been 45 at the time. If Dunaway had been five years older, and if she hadn't already appeared in the Supergirl film, then she might have been a good pick. It so happens she played a character running an escort service in a 1986 movie titled Beverly Hills Madam, but I think Dunaway was a little too attractive for the TDKR version of Selina.

This particular Selina is meant to be bloated and well past her peak attractiveness. It's rather difficult to cast the part without being deliberately insulting towards the proposed actress.

I never considered Warren, but she might have been a good pick too were it not for her age. She would have been just 40 at the time.

I considered Julie Newmar, as she would have been 53 in 1986 and had already played a trashy hooker in the 1985 movie Streewalkin'.

My main problem with Newmar was simply that she'd already played Selina in an unrelated production. If it was West playing Batman, then she would have been perfect. But I think it would have been weird seeing her play Catwoman opposite Eastwood.

Kim Novak would also have been 53 in 1986, but I think she was too ladylike for this trashier take on Selina.

In her youth though, Novak would have made an incredible Selina Kyle. Vertigo (1958) ranks among my top ten favourite films of all time, and her pitch perfect performance is truly haunting. She'd have been my top pick for a 1950s Catwoman.

I thought about Diana Rigg, whose performance as Emma Peel in The Avengers was likely an influence on the sixties Catwoman. In 1986 she was 48, which would have been just about old enough.

But like Novak, I don't know if she could have portrayed the trashiness of the TDKR Selina. I'm not even sure if she could do a convincing American accent either.

Raquel Welch is a good suggestion though. I never thought of her. She would have been 46 in 1986, which is still a bit young but maybe just about old enough. She was still in great shape, but with some gaudy makeup and padding she just might have worked in the part. This is her in 1987.

TDKR Selina is a really tough role to cast. And we haven't even talked about plus-size Lana Lang yet...

[The Joker]

Another name I would throw into the hat, is Angie Dickinson.

I think she would have been age appropriate for Eastwood in '86. The biggest issue is Angie wasn't as plump as Miller's TDKR Selina, but I think with the right makeup/hairstyle, she could pull off the unflattering over-the-hill Selina Kyle that Frank Miller was going for.

Here she is in 1985.




With Barbeau, I agree she would have been a bit too young at the time. Whenever her name is brought up, I tend to think of the early 1980s when she was in a few John Carpenter movies (The Fog, Escape from New York ... how prophetic), and Wes Craven's Swamp Thing. To me, she already had that Cougar/MILF look, thanks in part to her voluptuous figure, even when she was in her early-mid 30's.

[thecolorsblend]

Looks like I lost the bit about ignoring Miller's vision for, ahem, latter day Selina. Indeed, it is a tough role to cast.

Anne Bancroft was showing the miles and the years by the 80s. Plus, her Wiki page suggests that she was wide open to accept the role.

Lee Meriwether is another idea. Assuming I'm actually finding 1980s era pics of her, she looked pretty young even tho she was right at 60 when a TDKR movie would've gone into production. She is already associated with Catwoman. But I think a loophole might exist here in that Catwoman was not necessarily associated with her. A second bite at the apple for her might be excusable.

Debbie Reynolds? I don't think it would take much to bring her to Selina's excesses. If it's a bonus, she doesn't seem to have done much of anything in the 80s either.

Finding a hefty actress the right age is a serious pain in the pain.

Lana might be even harder. Shirley MacLaine is the best I've got.

[Azrael]

I've been trying to imagine if a film adaptation of The Dark Knight Returns had been released at the same time as the book, or immediately afterwards, then who would have starred in it? Which actors would have been not only right for the roles, but also the appropriate age at the time? Here's the cast I came up with. The pictures I've chosen for each actor are all taken from films or TV episodes released in 1986 to show what they looked like around the time TDKR was published. I'll note the title of each film/TV show next to each actor's name along with their age in 1986.

This is excellent. The juxtaposition of comic art to actors pics is spot on - especially Bronson, Cushing, Hamilton, Saxon. As much as Nicholson IS the Joker, maybe for a TDKR movie made in 1986, David Bowie too.

Selina.. Ursula Andress?



EDIT 2020-09-24 (Later than the replies to this post)

(Edit to avoid an unnecessary bump)

Adding pictures from a David Bowie photoshoot with clown outfit and make-up for Scary Monsters (1980).

Info about the shoot.

https://www.duffyarchive.com/shop/prints/david-bowie-prints/scary-monsters-clown/

The outfit was worn in the Ashes to Ashes music video.

[The Laughing Fish]

As much as Nicholson IS the Joker, maybe for a TDKR movie made in 1986, David Bowie too.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. Nicholson is obviously better out of the two in terms of acting, but David Bowie did have a stronger resemblance to the Joker in DKR. Particularly in the panel where he is talking to his henchman Abner.

 



Of course, Nicholson was always going to get the role in any film adaptation. I believe it was producer Michael Uslan who stated Nicholson was his only choice for the Joker ever since he saw The Shining. With that sort of star power, I don't think many other actors had a chance.

[Silver Nemesis]

Another name I would throw into the hat, is Angie Dickinson.

I think she would have been age appropriate for Eastwood in '86. The biggest issue is Angie wasn't as plump as Miller's TDKR Selina, but I think with the right makeup/hairstyle, she could pull off the unflattering over-the-hill Selina Kyle that Frank Miller was going for.

Here she is in 1985.

Joker, that's perfect! Dickinson would have been 55 in 1986, and she definitely had the acting chops to pull it off. It would have been fairly soon after her critically acclaimed performance in Brian De Palma's Dressed to Kill (1980), so she'd have been a marketable talent from the studio's perspective. I also like the fact that she had past ties to the western genre through movies like Man with the Gun (1955), Gun the Man Down (1956), Rio Bravo (1959) The Last Challenge (1967), Sam Whisky (1969), Young Billy Young (1969), etc. She had a history of playing tough chicks and would have been the perfect Selina Kyle for Eastwood's Bruce Wayne. Dickinson gets my vote.

Anne Bancroft was showing the miles and the years by the 80s. Plus, her Wiki page suggests that she was wide open to accept the role.

Lee Meriwether is another idea. Assuming I'm actually finding 1980s era pics of her, she looked pretty young even tho she was right at 60 when a TDKR movie would've gone into production. She is already associated with Catwoman. But I think a loophole might exist here in that Catwoman was not necessarily associated with her. A second bite at the apple for her might be excusable.

Debbie Reynolds? I don't think it would take much to bring her to Selina's excesses. If it's a bonus, she doesn't seem to have done much of anything in the 80s either.

I thought about Bancroft but deemed her a bit too elegant for Miller's Selina. The same would apply to Meriwether. Debbie Reynolds is an interesting suggestion, and another one I'd not considered. I don't know if she could have portrayed such a sleazy take on the character, but she would have been an appropriate age at the time (54). This is her at the 1986 Academy Awards.

Would she have been perceived as too wholesome for the part? Perhaps. But she's up there with Dickinson as far as physical suitability goes.

Lana might be even harder. Shirley MacLaine is the best I've got.

MacLaine's not a bad suggestion for Lana. She'd have been 52 in 1986. This is her in 1987.

One alternative would be to use Annette O'Toole and try to make her up to look older, but I think MacLaine would have been more suitable. Right now I honestly can't think of anyone else who could have played Miller's Lana.

As much as Nicholson IS the Joker, maybe for a TDKR movie made in 1986, David Bowie too.

Bowie definitely looked a lot more like the androgynous TDKR Joker than Nicholson. My only reservation would be his age, since he'd have only been 39 at the time. But I guess with the makeup on, it wouldn't have mattered too much. 1986 was the year he made Labyrinth, but when I visualise him as the Joker the first thing that pops into my head is Fire Walk with Me (1992). Must be the white suit.