The Kaiju/Monsterverse Thread (Kong & Godzilla)

[Silver Nemesis]

I've always thought that Godzilla's value stems less from his straightforward characterisation – which, as Joker points out, varies from one era to the next – and more from what he represents. Good science fiction tends to reflect the anxieties of the culture in which it was produced, and the original 1954 Gojira is a perfect example of this. It's not a kid-friendly monster mash like most of the sequels that followed, but a dark and serious drama that highlights the anxieties of post-War Japan. The most obvious of these anxieties is the fear of nuclear annihilation resulting from the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nuclear apocalypse is a common theme in Japanese sci-fi, and Godzilla is the single most iconic embodiment of that fear. He was born from a nuclear blast and his fire breath is radioactive. The imagery of him wading through burning Japanese cities consciously evokes the devastation inflicted by the 1944-1945 firebombing of Tokyo.

The debate surrounding the use of Dr. Serizawa's Oxygen Destroyer in the 1954 film is also an obvious commentary on the moral uncertainty concerning the use of WMDs during wartime. The shadow of World War II looms heavily over that movie, which is hardly surprising considering it was made less than a decade after Japan's surrender. That said, Godzilla's cultural symbolism goes back a lot further than WW2. Japan is a nation that's regularly afflicted with earthquakes. According to their old folklore, these earthquakes are caused by a giant catfish named Namazu who is said to sleep beneath Japan. Whenever Namazu moves, natural disasters occur. Even now, the image of Namazu is still used on modern earthquake warning signs across the country.

So the idea of blaming natural disasters on a giant animal is deeply ingrained in their folklore, which might explain why the kaiju genre has such resonance with Japanese audiences. Take that concept and combine it with their post-war terror of nuclear annihilation and you get Godzilla. He's the perfect encapsulation of their fears. I don't think any other culture could have produced him in quite the same way.

Godzilla's transformation from villain to hero as the film series progressed can be seen as a reflection of the cultural changes that have occurred since the 1950s. The trauma of WW2 has grown more distant with each generation, and Japan and America are now firm military allies (see the recent joint naval manoeuvres conducted by the US, Japan, UK, France, India and Australia in the Indo-Pacific for a preview of what a future military alliance against Russia or China might look like). Thus Godzilla became a friendly defensive entity that would awaken whenever Japan was threatened, and the movies lost much of their metaphorical resonance as a consequence.

The only other Godzilla film which has the same cultural and thematic depth as the 1954 original is Shin Gojira (2016), aka Godzilla Resurgence. This time the symbolism of Godzilla was used to confront a more recent trauma in Japanese history: the Fukushima Daiichi disaster caused by the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami. Here we have a combination of both a natural disaster and a nuclear disaster occurring simultaneously. Godzilla was the perfect cultural symbol with which to metaphorically confront the tragedy of those events, and the film's bleak imagery intentionally mirrors the news footage that was captured back in 2011. Once again, Godzilla was used as an allegory for a real life disaster.

Joker's Pre-Crisis/Post-Crisis analogy is a good one. Just as the original 1939 Batman was a coldblooded pulp vigilante who went around murdering criminals, so was the original Godzilla a frightening and antagonistic symbol of mass destruction. Both characters were subsequently sanitised to become kid-friendly heroes. Toho's attempt to take Godzilla back to his darker roots during the Heisei era (1984–1995) is analogous to DC's deconstructive treatment of its heroes in the Post-Crisis era (Batman: Year One, Hawkworld, Superman: The Man of Steel, etc). Since Godzilla's original characterisation was villainous, it makes sense to have him serve a villainous role in Godzilla vs. Kong. Of course Kong can be a villain too, but he's generally a more sympathetic villain.

I don't think Kong has quite the same cultural depth that Godzilla has, at least not in terms of what he symbolises. But he has more emotional depth by virtue of being a more anthropomorphic character. He's not human, but he's closer to being a human than Godzilla is. I haven't contemplated the subtext of the original 1933 King Kong too deeply, but I suppose one reading could be that it's a critique of western colonialism. I doubt that's what the filmmakers intended back in the day, but it's probably how many modern critics would interpret the film now. In his homeland King Kong reigned supreme.

But when he's brought to America his position is inverted so that he's the one in chains being presented as a trophy before the masses.

He's an enslaved commodity exploited by a foreign aggressor; a simian metaphor for oil and other captured resources. In that sense he can be seen as a victim, at least more so than Godzilla can. So again, it makes sense to have him be the hero. I'm very much in the Team Godzilla camp (I still haven't seen the latest movie), but I do like Kong as well. It's nice to know these classic monsters can still draw a crowd after so many years.

Now I want to see Mechani-Kong make his long-awaited return.

Of course they might have to change the name of the villain who created him. I hear there's already a character named 'Dr. Who'...

[The Joker]

Outstanding post, Silver Nemesis!

You definitely know your stuff. 

Oh, and +1 on Mechani-Kong. That character has been talked about for a return for the better part of 30 years now. As I think Toho was originally thinking about using Mechani-Kong as a substitute for Kong in their follow-up to 1989's Godzilla vs. Biollante. At this stage in the Monsterverse, he would fit right on in there.

[Silver Nemesis]

I'd never heard about Mechani-Kong appearing in the Godzilla series until now, but I can see how it might have worked. The plot of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991) involves Godzilla turning into the villain halfway through the movie. Instead of deploying Mecha-Ghidorah against him, the humans and Futurians could have brought in Mechani-Kong. That would have been interesting.

Aside from Mechani-Kong, there are some other kaiju I'd like to see return in future movies. For a start, Sanda and Gaira from The War of the Gargantuas (1966).

These guys would make a welcome addition considering the original King Kong vs. Godzilla (1962) began development as a King Kong vs. Frankenstein project. The closest we ever got to Kong vs. Frankenstein was Frankenstein Conquers the World (1965), to which The War of the Gargantuas is a sequel. Sanda and Gaira are basically offshoots of Frankenstein's monster and would be perfect opponents for Kong. They already encountered Godzilla in a 2014 comic, but they've yet to face off against him or Kong in live action.

But the most obvious kaiju to add to the mix has got to be Gamera. This needs to happen.

[The Dark Knight]

Josh Grode, the CEO of Legendary Entertainment, says the company has more ideas for future films in the MonsterVerse.

I'm all for it, especially from a Kong point of view as he's feeling even more like a character in his own right. The reboot has given him two enjoyable films that broaden his scope outside the classic original tale. I only need two versions of that tale, the original and the most modern retelling of it. Any other variations don't interest me because of sheer repetition. And poor quality.

So I choose these four:

King Kong (1933)
King Kong (2005)
Kong: Skull Island
Godzilla v Kong

Not a bad bunch of films.

I had a passing interest in Kong but it's been awakened into something a little more now. If they have a good idea for a third movie they should proceed. Keeping the focus on exciting action would secure an audience in any case. Peter Jackson had an idea for another Kong film which I'd also like to hear more about.

[The Joker]

I'd never heard about Mechani-Kong appearing in the Godzilla series until now, but I can see how it might have worked. The plot of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991) involves Godzilla turning into the villain halfway through the movie. Instead of deploying Mecha-Ghidorah against him, the humans and Futurians could have brought in Mechani-Kong. That would have been interesting.

That's the one!

Originally, Toho wanted to do a reboot of King Kong vs. Godzilla for the Heisei era following Biollante, but the Kong rights issue became too much of a hurdle. Mechani-Kong was an option, especially since Nintendo actually won their Donkey Kong lawsuit against Universal Studios, but Toho decided to go with Ghiodrah/Mecha-Ghidorah instead and the rest is history.

Aside from Mechani-Kong, there are some other kaiju I'd like to see return in future movies. For a start, Sanda and Gaira from The War of the Gargantuas (1966).

These guys would make a welcome addition considering the original King Kong vs. Godzilla (1962) began development as a King Kong vs. Frankenstein project. The closest we ever got to Kong vs. Frankenstein was Frankenstein Conquers the World (1965), to which The War of the Gargantuas is a sequel. Sanda and Gaira are basically offshoots of Frankenstein's monster and would be perfect opponents for Kong. They already encountered Godzilla in a 2014 comic, but they've yet to face off against him or Kong in live action.

But the most obvious kaiju to add to the mix has got to be Gamera. This needs to happen.

Nice idea about Kong vs. the Gargantuas, and yeah, that Gamera crossover sincerely needs to happen. I don't care if it's within the Monsterverse, or under a Toho/Kadokawa Daiei Studio partnership.

Let's do this.

Josh Grode, the CEO of Legendary Entertainment, says the company has more ideas for future films in the MonsterVerse.

I'm all for it, especially from a Kong point of view as he's feeling even more like a character in his own right. The reboot has given him two enjoyable films that broaden his scope outside the classic original tale. I only need two versions of that tale, the original and the most modern retelling of it. Any other variations don't interest me because of sheer repetition. And poor quality.

So I choose these four:

King Kong (1933)
King Kong (2005)
Kong: Skull Island
Godzilla v Kong

Not a bad bunch of films.

I had a passing interest in Kong but it's been awakened into something a little more now. If they have a good idea for a third movie they should proceed. Keeping the focus on exciting action would secure an audience in any case. Peter Jackson had an idea for another Kong film which I'd also like to hear more about.

Yeah, Peter Jackson's involvement with Kong really began nearly 10 years before the 2005 remake was even released. 1996 to be precise, and was originally scheduled for a 1998 date. Coincidentally, the same year the GINO came out on Memorial Day (along with the animated, The Mighty Kong, and even a Mighty Joe Young remake).

I can't say I watched Jackson's Kong Production Diaries when they originally aired over on the KongisKing website back in the day (I *think* that was the website if memory serves), but I did check them out when I bought the nice box set that came out on DVD for the release of Peter Jackson's King Kong in Dec 2005. That April Fool's prank about a remake of "Son of Kong" was excellent, but bittersweet as well cause it came across like it probably would have made for a very entertaining film to be perfectly honest here.

I've always had a soft spot for the 1976 Kong, and personally looking very much forward to the May 2021 blu ray release Shout Factory is putting out, that actually has the extended TV cut included. Which I've never seen. Speaking of that movie, it's crazy to think of how much the DVD of King Kong Lives is going for these days. I can't even remember the last time I bothered watching it, but I guess I'm glad I went ahead and picked it up for like $5 at a walgreens of all places years ago, compared to the prices I see it going for now. Quality doesn't matter when it's OOP. That's for sure.

[Silver Nemesis]

I've never seen King Kong Lives, but I do have a certain affection for the 1976 film. It was actually the first King Kong movie I saw as a child. If nothing else, the score by John Barry deserves some love.

[The Joker]

Yes! That John Barry score is just incredibly epic, and really elevates the 1976 film itself in a lot of ways. I've read online people's recollections of the 1976 King Kong when it originally played in theaters, and it seems like the Kong promotion was somewhere around JAWS levels of hype (which was only just the year prior), and that was probably something special to have had experienced.

Personally, out of all the King Kong movie posters, I tend to always prefer the 1976 poster the most. Hell, one of these days I might just go ahead and pick up a reprint for display, but yeah, the John Berkey art is simply outstanding.



I was lucky enough to get the regular Paramount DVD of King Kong 1976 with the original poster art on the cover that was put out prior to 9/11. Which then, was re-issued on DVD with a more reddish, generic-as-all-get-out DVD cover. The upcoming Shout Factory release has nice slipcover, but I am hoping we get a reversible blu ray slip featuring the original poster artwork like many other Shout Factory releases have had previously. Guess we'll see, but it's always good having an option.

[The Joker]

I wasn't aware of the fact that, apparently, despite making less at the box office than Godzilla 2014, and Kong: Skull Island, 2019's Godzilla King of the Monsters performed very well on home media and merch sales (outperforming Godzilla 2014 on those fronts).

As Yogurt would say: "Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from the movie is made."

ME has a point here in saying it makes a whole lot of sense for Toho to kick back, and agree to an extension of their contract with Legendary. Oversaturation would be a concern, especially if between the Monsterverse and Toho, Godzilla-centric movies would be put out every year, but these days (especially these days) I don't think it would be confusing to the audiences to figure out which universe is which.

My only thing, is that if Toho is dead set on doing their own Godzilla films inbetween the years of a possible continuing Monsterverse schedule, I personally would have preferred a more "Millennium Era" style approach where they could really get creative with the films, as opposed to concentrating on adhering to a shared universe/continuity. Stuff like Shin Godzilla and 2001's GMK are spectacular examples of this.

[The Joker]

Evidently, Legendary's Monsterverse is indeed continuing post GvK.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/adam-wingard-next-godzilla-kong-movie-director

One possible title being floated internally at Legendary? 'Son of Kong.'

It wasn't the most encouraging start.

Just as Legendary's Godzilla vs. Kong was beginning postproduction in 2019, the company's Godzilla: King of the Monsters opened — and underperformed. The movie, which cost $170 million to make, grossed only $386 million and earned middling reviews (42 percent on Rotten Tomatoes).

Given King of the Monsters' less-than-stellar results, Legendary insiders had viewed Godzilla vs. Kong as perhaps the end of the current version of the franchise, even as executives believed they had saved the best for last. But then Godzilla vs. Kong opened.

The movie, which bowed stateside March 31 to $31.6 million, has crossed $400 million globally. It is the top-grossing Hollywood-produced movie released since the pandemic upended the movie business. And it has yet to open in multiple larger markets, among them the U.K., Brazil and Japan. It also marks the second-best performance in the four-movie MonsterVerse franchise, trailing only Kong: Skull Island's 2017 tally of $566 million.

Now, instead of winding down the franchise, Godzilla vs. Kong may ramp it up. The Hollywood Reporter has learned that Legendary is quietly taking steps to stretch the series into one or more installments, entering early talks with Godzilla vs. Kong director Adam Wingard to return for another round of monster-on-monster mayhem. If a deal closes, Wingard would be the first helmer to return to the monster fold since Godzilla kicked off the Legendary partnership with Japan's Toho in 2014 with $524 million in global receipts.

As of now, there's no timetable for the project as Wingard has become popular among studios. Warner Bros., for example, chased and landed the director for a live-action feature based on the Saturday morning cartoon Thundercats. And a Face/Off sequel at Paramount also beckons. And there is no known writer attached to the new MonsterVerse installment, either.

However, Wingard (CAA, Grandview, Morris Yorn) is said to have been very involved in creating Godzilla vs. Kong set-pieces as well as the world-building for the movie's Hollow Earth plotline, and he and Legendary have been cooking up plenty of ideas already. In fact, one possible title being floated internally? Son of Kong.

Son of Kong, huh?



Given that the Monsterverse films that have featured Kong have done very well, I see this as being a pretty safe option to go with considering Godzilla's solo Monsterverse films have been spotty (2014 Godzilla performing well, 2019 KOTM underperforming).

Wingard returning as director is alright I guess, though ... I don't know. From the interviews I've read, he just comes across as much more of a big G fanboy, than he does that of Kong. Maybe that's just how I am interpreting some of the stuff he's said? But, hey, what's Peter Jackson doing these days? Doing a "Son of Kong" reboot wouldn't require the huge undertaking of 'high art' that I am sure Jackson demanded of himself when remaking the King Kong back in 2005. "Son of Kong" could be just Jackson cutting loose, and having a lot fun with concept. Perhaps even more so under the even more fantastical Monsterverse canon.

Besides, having fun with the "Son of Kong" concept definitely appeared to be what Jackson was pushing during that stellar April Fool's prank way back when. 

[The Joker]

Pre-ordered the Best Buy steelbook of GvK, and now I have a collection of steelbooks all the Legendary Monsterverse films. Godzilla 2014, Kong: Skull Island, Godzilla King of the Monsters, and Godzilla vs. Kong.. So, I thought, what the hell, and went ahead and purchased the FYE steelbook of the original 1962 King Kong vs Godzilla as well. All thanks to that completist mentality, but they do look nice all together on a shelf.

After watching the film for the first time with director Adam Wingard commentary, I have to go back to a previous statement I made:

Wingard returning as director is alright I guess, though ... I don't know. From the interviews I've read, he just comes across as much more of a big G fanboy, than he does that of Kong. Maybe that's just how I am interpreting some of the stuff he's said?

Nope. It's not me just simply misinterpreting Wingard at all. Given prior statements, along with his commentary track, it's clear as day the guy is a absolute huge Godzilla fanboy through and through. I don't want to say to an annoying degree per say, but statements like, "Godzilla's never worried about losing to Kong, "Godzilla is really just toying with Kong. He's having fun! Kong's not having fun.", "Here, Godzilla has had enough of Kong and tired of messing around." ect ect really does nothing but downplay the fights, or even threat Kong would pose to Godzilla in this film. Which, naturally, one would think would be rather significant since a King Kong vs Godzilla flick has decidedly been in the cards since 2017 when it was teased at the end of Kong: Skull Island, and was "originally" conceived to be the overall conclusion to Legendary's Monsterverse.

I think the film comes off better than Wingard's thinking, but I go into a bona fide VERSUS film wanting conflict, and a fight that can go either way. Not simply one character taking it as life or death, and the other just having fun, and toying around until agitated enough. Kind of a disservice to the rivalry itself, but again, I think the fights comes across better than that.

I mentioned Peter Jackson previously (which would be great but a long shot), but I think Jordan Vogt-Roberts getting another go at Kong would be cool if there is to be a Monsterverse Son of Kong film, as he did a good job with Skull Island. As it would be interesting to see how he would handle Kong residing within the Hollow Earth. Wingard's sensibilities clearly lie with Godzilla, and would assuredly be capable of handling another Monsterverse Godzilla followup (perhaps with Gigan as the antagonist?).