Fed Up With Burton/Batman Bashing

[Joker81]

I see all your points and will probably go back and read the book when I've calmed down and am ready to.

To me Batman is a fantasy. Its not real and any atempt to make it 'real' is pathetic, as a man who dresses up as a bat and beats criminals up is insane. But I'm not totally 'out-there' lol there has to be some realism to it, as in we have to keep our feet on the ground.(Burton tried to do this with the first Batman, even tho it is a fantasy film he explains about the gadgets Batman has "we tried to give the 'toys' so to speak a certain cluckiness so as to keep it a bit realistic". thats great he cud have easiily done all these things with Batman with special effects back in '89, but he didnt because would we belive it? No. so it was Burton done the 'realism' thing first not Nolan.

Anyway, it is a fantasy and I like the idea of the Joker having a permanant grin or smile. It makes sense. Thats why hes the Joker(one reason why anyway). I also think the reason behind him 'appearing' not to have a permanant grin in the comics is for illistration purposes! how can you draw the Jokers emotions and reactions if every pic has a smile on it! I am an artist, you try and draw it like that. so to me the Joker DOES have a permanant smile, and always did.

Yes the chelsea smile is a new thing, personally I dont know if I like that. But hey its something new, and maybe a new take, not replacing the old, jus like Batman has changed over the years. But what will annoy me the most about The Dark Knight is the fact the Joker will wear makeup! thats going too far. To me he has to be stained white, thats wat makes him unique.

[DocLathropBrown]

Frank Miller said "These characters work best as the flamboyant fantasies that they are. I don't need to see sweat patches under Superman's arms. I want to see him fly."

[Joker81]

Well Said! 

[BatmAngelus]

Right on.
There's another great quote from Mike Barr in the "Batman In Outer Space" article in the Batman Unauthorized book:
"Though these stories transported Batman to future times and to alien worlds, he was still depicted as a master strategist, a quick thinker, and the most formidable crime-fighter of any era, characteristics that are far more important to his character than setting."

That, to me, sums it up.  I don't think the world of the story has to be nitty gritty realistic in order to have a good story.  Especially with comic book films.  I've already suspended my disbelief before I entered the theater.
For any story to be believable to me, the writer has to allow me to go inside the characters' heads.  I have to understand the motivations behind their actions and they have to act in such a way that makes sense with their character.  As long as these aspects are there, I will find the story believable and enjoy it, no matter what kind of world it takes place in.

Edit:
When it comes to Batman, there is a notion that since Batman is human and has no superpowers, he is more realistic and audiences can relate better to him because they could "become him."
I strongly disagree.  To me, no one in real life could become Batman.  To make the argument "super powers vs. non-super powers" is way too simple to me.
In my opinion, Batman is as much a superhero as Superman, but in a different way.  In Batman's case, the tragedy in Bruce's early life sent him on a relentless course to becoming the best at everything.  Batman's superior intellect, skills, and determination set him far apart from others.  There's a lot more to him than just "a  guy who has gadgets, instead of powers."
And since we, as the audience, are aware of the death of Bruce's parents and understand how it can traumatize the young boy, it becomes entirely believable that Bruce would spend the rest of his life in this way.
Thus, in the comics, when Bruce dons the Batsuit to strike fear into the hearts of criminals- the same fear that his parents' killer made him feel in Crime Alley decades earlier- the "absurdity" of having "a man in a bat costume" doesn't seem so absurd at all.

[BurtonBatman]

I would classify what the die-hard Nolan deciples think of Burton's Batman as irreverant.  Like a snot-nosed kid being disrespectful towards his elders, those who laid the foundation for his very existence generations before.   Some of these deciples even go far as to say that Burton's interpretation of the character as illigitmate.  As some have stated in earlier posts, there have been many interpretations of Batman, so it is difficult to nail down the "definitive" version of the character, so all are legitimate.  I will say though, that a strong case can be made that Burton's interpretation in Batman (1989) is the definitive version as it CLOSELY mirrors Bob Kane and Bill Fingers early works.  They defined Batman, so it follows that a film based on thier vision should be considered definitive.  All other interpretations are merely evolutions based on that foundation, some small steps, and some wild leaps.  Nolan deciples should read thier Bat-history before they bash a director who made a film that depicted Batman as his creators envisioned him. 

Also, it was Burton's Batman (1989) that legimized comic book films.  He made them potential blockbusters.  The Spiderman and X-men franchises, the blossoming Iron Man and Hulk Franchises, and even Nolan's films, owe thier existence and success to B89.  They only reason movie studios clamor to get a piece of our beloved superheroes is because of Tim Burton and the Batmania he created almost 20 years ago. 

If the Nolan deciples could get past thier blind devotion, they would also acknowledge that Tim Burton gave us the most "realistic" Batman do date.  Burton's Batman is more human than Nolan's.  For Burton's Batman, his mission is personal, but for Nolan's Batman its for an ideal, which makes him less human.  I would ask the Nolan deciples to place themselves in Nolan Batman's shoes, your parents have been murdered, and thier killer taken out before you could get at him.  To believe Nolan Batman would pursue his endless mission after Chill's death is simply unrealistic and not human.  Batman's quest for revenge is what drives him and fuels him.  To him, revenge and justice ARE the same, contrary to what Nolan would have you believe.  Kane and Finger made Batman a vigilante, something Nolan tries very hard to remove from his mythos, but why would you take away that key defining characteristic from him. 

This is more of a criticism of Nolan more than his deciples, but Burton would not have filmed Batman in his full glory under flourescent lights as Nolan did in the Arkham escape scene in Begins and what looks like key scenes in TDK.  When Nolan does this, it removes the mystery and makes Batman look like a goofy guy in a rubber suit.  Batman becomes unbelievable the more real you make him, not the reverse. Batman fits in Burton's Gotham because it is mythic and Batman mythological.  Nolan demythologizes Batman when he places him in his "real-world" version of Gotham.

I appreciate and enjoy all serious interpretations of Batman, and that includes Nolan's interpretations, something the Nolan deciples should emulate.  To dismiss Burton's Batman (1989) as illigitmate is irreverent, for the Nolan deciples, including Mr. Nolan himself, owe it a large debt of gratitude.  No Batman film before or since, will ever do for Batman what Burton's film did in June of 1989. 

[Joker81]

All these posts are FANTASTIC! You guys have really cheered me up after the Batman 89 bashing thats been going on over the last load of months.

And BurtonBatman - well said! I couldnt have said it better myself.

Another point is what people seem to forget is Batman 89 was supervised by Bob Kane, his creator! Thus giving it more ligitimacy than any other Batman film since and ever will!!!

I hate the way people try and justify Batmans violence. Like Frank Millar said, the worst mastake you can do is deputise Batman, and give him a badge. Thats why we like Batman, because he is a vigilanty and dishes out some hard brutal punishment to thugs that deserve it - just like the way we all wish we could do that at times!
And the fact you point out he is human, humans are not perfect, we all make mastakes, like Batman is human and can make mastakes. This is how we relate, hes not all goody two shoes, lets 'overpower' this mugger and bring him down to the Police Station. Yeah that'll work.

And now you mention it the break out of Arkyum at the end of Begins was fony and pretty lame. Was that supposed to be 'realistic'!?

I think I am just peeved at the lack of respect Batman 89 is getting these days like BurtonBatman says.

[Sandman]

I came from imdb and it seems the bashing there has been getting worse and worse each day i never understood how everyone can love this movie  one day and then the next call it garbage for me this is my fav batman  movie and just one of my fav movies and i hate the fact people are putting it down just to try and make the nolan movies sound better now i liked batman begins and im dying to see the dark knight but the amount of hate toward this film for no reason makes me start to dislike the nolan films alot that why im so glad someone should me this site its great everyone is so nice and won't tear you apart for liking burtons batman the best

[Paul (ral)]

the amount of hate toward this film for no reason makes me start to dislike the nolan films

i feel the same way sometimes, it is irrational to think like that, but sometimes you can't help it 

everyone is so nice and won't tear you apart for liking burtons batman the best

that's true, but at the same time, nobody here will stand for tearing someone apart that likes nolans films best.   I like Batman films done properly - through great storytelling, great visuals and great performances.  there are a good bunch of guys here.  (cheese)

[Joker81]

Yes Sandman, thats exactly how I feel myself.

I cant wait to see TDK, and I think Ledger will be brilliant in it. But that doesnt mean Jack is rubbish (toned down word there compared to what I have seen in some forums!) as the Joker. Some people have no respeect.

And you are right, Batman was loved one day then hated the next! lol the mind boggles.........

I think (and I mean no offence when I say this) that a lot of this bashing is coming from little kids really, silly teenagers who dont know better. I'm 26, so I should know better not to listen to their juvenile remarkes lol and not get involved

[shadowbat69]

Its sad but it seems that the core fanbase has been unable to accept that there different interpretations of the character. If everyone can understand that and understand that there are people that prefer different ones then the easier it would be to get along and have the Batman fanboards the way they should be.