Fed Up With Burton/Batman Bashing

[BurtonBatman]

My problem with the "why must we pick favorites?" is (1) it falsely suggests one version cannot be superior the other and (2) all versions are of equal artistic input.

Such is not the case.

(1) In terms of cinematic elements (Dialog, Editing, Pacing, Cinematography etc.  there is some room for an objective analysis of these films, but even some of those elements can be subjective (i.e. not all film critics unanimously agree).  But in terms of  Batman's interpretation, there have been so many that to call one more superior to the other is close-minded.

(2) I agree with you somewhat here.  Obviously, the second go rounds for each Director allowed them more artistic imput, but I'm not sure this second point is the final way to assess a film's ineherant superiority.  Some Batman fans have different criteria on which to judge Batman films, and they may not elevate artistic input the way some do.  In general, I'm for a dark, serious, Batman film that has some fidelity to the source material, for others the criteria can be quite the opposite and thats ok with me. 

If you're a Batman fan and sincerely have no preference in, say, BR vs. BB, you need to see a shrink.  One will work better for you as a Batman tale than the other.  To say that they're both completely neck-and-neck 100% equal in your eyes is an insult to everyone's intelligence.  The things that work for you in Burton's films are probably systemically deconstructed in Nolan's.  And vice versa.

If you like hamburgers, it's not at all out of line to think you have a preference in Whoppers vs. Big Macs.  Or Smallville vs. Singerman Peeps Superman Returns for Superman fans.

When two products present the same basic thing in such diametrically opposite ways, it's only natural to prefer one over the other.  You can hate both but I find it difficult to believe that a fan would hold both in equal esteem.  It's symptomatic of (A) an outright lie or (B) a weak-willed fan who has no intellectual facilities to objectively compare the two to each other.

Pretty much it's that simple.

I'm not sure anyone on this thread has stated they put Burton and Nolan's films on equal footing in terms of preference, If so I missed it.  If you are referring to my "right up there with" comment, I'm afraid you misinterpreted my meaning.  I merely meant that they were on the same proverbial "medal stand" i.e. B89 (Gold), BB (Silver), BR (Bronze). I will say this is subject to change (except for B89), as TDK may push BR out of a medal.  I appreciate Burton's filmaking in BR, but for my own tastes, it was too much Tim Burton.  Had BR been more faithful to the source material (again my personal preference) it would be ahead of BB on my "medal stand."

Your are on the money about preference, one ultimitley has to take sides if you will, but your comments about Nolan "desconstructing" Burton, as well as being "diametrically" opposed to him are interesting.  Could you please explain further? 

My gut tells me that this too depends on how you evaluate a bat film.  As I said earlier, in general I prefer a dark, serious, a faithful intepretation of Batman on film.  As such, Burton's (B89) and Nolan's (BB) are for me, not necessarily diametrically opposed to one another based on this criteria.  In fact, they are on the same side of the Batman continuum in my view (Adam West, Shumacher on one side, Nolan and Burton on the other).  Now, if you are talking about "realism vs. fantasy," and "realist Batman vs. Idealist Batman," then this is where I am more inclined to agree with them being more diametrically opposed, but this is another set of criteria and another continuum (Nolan on one side, Burton on the other).  Here I prefer "realist" and "fantasy" Batman over thier counterparts, but these are more specific criteria than general in my view, which I then use to further separate the two director's films so I can then place them in order of preference on my "medal stand."  My general criteria filters all Batman films to see if they make the medal stand, my specific criteria then puts them in rank order.

Ulitimately, I don't believe "its that simple," especially given the complexity and lineage of the character we are discussing.

[thecolorsblend]

Your are on the money about preference, one ultimitley has to take sides if you will, but your comments about Nolan "desconstructing" Burton, as well as being "diametrically" opposed to him are interesting.  Could you please explain further?

I'm saying that Nolan and Burton's interpretations of the character are so different that the way one of them approaches the material will likely be different from the other.  Burton is more fantasy-oriented, obviously, while Nolan shoots for a gritty realism.  Correspondingly, one will work better for the viewer as a result than the other.

My remark was about the two of them being opposites and as such only someone with few standards or else very little knowledge of cinema will 100% love both.  Eventually preference has to creep in.  This isn't saying one has to hate one and love the other, but this smarmy cliche some people use that "they're both equal to me" is either the worst kind of pretentiousness in the best case or an outright lie in the worst.

I simply cannot accept it.

[Paul (ral)]

Eventually preference has to creep in.

I'm dreading TDK coming out. If it's as good as I hope it will be, i don't think i will be able to choose a favourite.

[greggbray]

This is an excellent conversation, and I'm so pleased I read it.

I belong to another forum, and on that particular forum the seemingly endless amount of anticipatory praise for Nolan is getting a bit severe.  Let's just see the film first, shall we?

This, in itself, is not so terrible. It's great to see so many people about Batman.

But it's like others have said--there's no need to prop up TDK by bashing what Burton 'got wrong.'  I really believe that many do not bother reading the comic books pre 1989 to see what, exactly, Hamm and company were adapting, or influenced by.

How the hell could Burton be influenced by Long Halloween?  A book that arrived YEARS after B89?  It's unbelievable.

Happy to see sensible thoughts here. 

[BurtonBatman]

Your are on the money about preference, one ultimitley has to take sides if you will, but your comments about Nolan "desconstructing" Burton, as well as being "diametrically" opposed to him are interesting.  Could you please explain further?

I'm saying that Nolan and Burton's interpretations of the character are so different that the way one of them approaches the material will likely be different from the other.  Burton is more fantasy-oriented, obviously, while Nolan shoots for a gritty realism.  Correspondingly, one will work better for the viewer as a result than the other.

My remark was about the two of them being opposites and as such only someone with few standards or else very little knowledge of cinema will 100% love both.  Eventually preference has to creep in.  This isn't saying one has to hate one and love the other, but this smarmy cliche some people use that "they're both equal to me" is either the worst kind of pretentiousness in the best case or an outright lie in the worst.

I simply cannot accept it.

Gotcha.

[Sandman]

My remark was about the two of them being opposites and as such only someone with few standards or else very little knowledge of cinema will 100% love both.  Eventually preference has to creep in.  This isn't saying one has to hate one and love the other, but this smarmy cliche some people use that "they're both equal to me" is either the worst kind of pretentiousness in the best case or an outright lie in the worst.

I simply cannot accept it.

Hummm while i agree with you that both movies have nothing in common besides the fact that there both movies about a man dressing up like a bat to fight crime i still can't see why you find it so hard to except that some people just like both movies the same. Personally im not one of them as very well said by BurtonBatman if you go by a "medal stand" i would have 89 gold, returns silver and bb bronze but i have heard from lots of people from many different boards say that they just like them the same even if they are completely different movies, but as said by more then one person i have talk to they just could not choose one movie above the rest because there not a nolan fan or a burton fan there just a batman fan.

[thecolorsblend]

I can't be held responsible for other peoples incoherent opinions.

[Sandman]

Ok then just for the record i wasn't trying to be offensive or anything like that just prue curiosity.

[thecolorsblend]

Nor was I, my friend.

[greggbray]

I actually have a hard time with preference, in terms of Batman and Batman Returns. I tend to like both of those over BB.

In terms of B89 and BR, it kind of depends what mood I'm in.  Generally speaking, I think B89 is the superior product, but there's something haunting about BR that keeps bringing me back to it.