First sign of the next film?

[Bobthegoon89]

To tell you the truth I get so sick of hearing about that graphic novel (and Batman Year One, Killing Joke, Arkham Asylum e.c.t). The way their constantly reported you'd be forgiven for thinking that they were the only decent Batman stories and that no others ever existed. They've all been covered to death.

Sign of the times, I guess. We live in a trade paperback world now. Those stories have been on bookshelves for so many years now that tastemakers and critics are familiar with only those comic books "graphic novels". I'd go so far as to say that a shocking percentage of "comic book fans" would be hardpressed to name ten Batman stories, much less the ten best, ten worst, ten most unforgivable, ten most overrated, ten best drawn/worst drawn, etc.

This is by no means unique to Batman either. It's strange now to live in a world where comics have never been more visible and in everybody's face and at the same time so widely ignored even by their supposedly most ardent followers.

I've taken a massive interest recently in the O'Neil and Adams era and while some dialogue and wardrobe is dated given the period of time I think their fantastic, well drawn stories. It's refreshing to read a Batman tale before the use of phrases like "Lucky, lucky old man" became overused. Unfortunately I don't think there are any graphic novels currently available of that entire era (I only have older ones and their in black and white). I'd also really like to read the Carmine Infantino era that saved the books with an exciting new look that inspired the tv show. Their always so expensive on ebay as issues. None of them to my knowledge are available as a graphic novel and yet DC continue to release new publications of their Miller catalogue. Get some new material eh? lol

[thecolorsblend]

I think the reason behind that is that reprints starting from some time in the 70's going through the early or mid 90's requires comics companies to pay a relatively high royalty rate to the creative people. So unless the creative people are willing to renegotiate their reprint fees, it's really hard for companies to reprint that stuff and turn a profit on it.

[Silver Nemesis]

I'd love to edit some collections of Bronze Age Batman comics, selecting which issues to include in which volumes, overseeing their restorations and writing introductions to explain why they're significant. In particular I'd really like to edit a TPB collecting some of the best Bronze Age Earth-Two stories. Especially the 'Death of Batman' arc and the stories leading up to it. A lot of people have read how the Golden Age Batman got started in Batman Chronicles V1, but not too many people have read how his adventures ended. Which is a shame, because it was a great story arc.

[thecolorsblend]

I'd love to edit some collections of Bronze Age Batman comics, selecting which issues to include in which volumes, overseeing their restorations and writing introductions to explain why they're significant. In particular I'd really like to edit a TPB collecting some of the best Bronze Age Earth-Two stories. Especially the 'Death of Batman' arc and the stories leading up to it. A lot of people have read how the Golden Age Batman got started in Batman Chronicles V1, but not too many people have read how his adventures ended. Which is a shame, because it was a great story arc.

I read The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne loooooooooong before I read The Death of Batman so maybe that affects my opinion but I felt like TDOB was kind of a dud. It's been ages since I read it but I couldn't help thinking that's just not how Batman would check out if he was ever going to die on the job. It felt like TAOBW was a better epitath. You get Bruce reflecting on his life and mortality in a really effective way. His death is obvious but mysterious... and one panel suggests that nobody came to his funeral which part of me buys pretty easily.

Not trying to gush too much here, I just love that story.

[Silver Nemesis]

Not trying to gush too much here, I just love that story.

'The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne' is a great story. I'd actually rank it amongst my top ten all time favourite Batman comics. It's certainly my favourite story featuring Catwoman and Scarecrow.

I read The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne loooooooooong before I read The Death of Batman so maybe that affects my opinion but I felt like TDOB was kind of a dud. It's been ages since I read it but I couldn't help thinking that's just not how Batman would check out if he was ever going to die on the job.

I know what you mean. It's a comparatively underwhelming story. But that's what I like about it. It's so simple and straightforward. Not an overblown, overhyped twelve month epic where we all know he's going to return from the dead in the end anyway. Based on the cover, you could be forgiven for thinking it was one of those gimmick stories which promised Batman and Robin would get killed, even though they never actually did.

But no, the original Golden Age Batman really does die in this story. And he doesn't come back afterwards. That was quite a ballsy move IMO.

I also like the fact that Bill Jensen, the guy who kills him, isn't a major super villain. Aside from his newly acquired superpowers, he's every bit as much a common lowlife as Joe Chill was. And I always preferred the idea of Batman getting taken down by a no-name lowlife rather than a major super villain. It brings a humble conclusion to his story, one that emphasises Bruce's fallibility and reminds us of his human frailty.

If I was to edit this and several connected stories into a single volume, I'd arrange them thusly:

The Death of Batman

•   'The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne' (The Brave and the Bold #197, April 1983) – Selina Kyle discovers Batman's true identity and turns over a new leaf. Batman faces Scarecrow for the last time. He and Selina end up together after she has served her debt to society.
•   'The Kill Kent Contract!' (Superman Family #211, October 1981) – Bruce Wayne marries Selina Kyle.
•   'Huntress: From Each Ending... A Beginning!' (DC Super-Stars #17, December 1977) – First appearance of Bruce and Selina's daughter, Helena Wayne. Selina is blackmailed into reassuming her Catwoman persona and is subsequently killed. Bruce Wayne retires as Batman and burns his Batsuit. Helena Wayne makes her debut as the Huntress.
•   'Injustice Strikes Twice!' (All-Star Comics #66, May 1977) – James Gordon dies. Bruce Wayne replaces him as police commissioner. I wouldn't include this entire issue, just a few relevant pages.
•   'Only Legends Live Forever' (Adventure Comics #461-462, February-April, 1979) – Commissioner Wayne reassumes the mantle of Batman and is killed by Bill Jensen. He is buried alongside his wife, Selina.
•   'The Night of the Soul Thief' (Adventure Comics #463, June 1979) – the JSA investigate the circumstances surrounding Batman's death and uncover the source of Bill Jensen's superpowers.
•   'The Last Laugh!' (Wonder Woman #283, September 1981) – Dick Grayson briefly assumes the mantle of the bat and teams up with Huntress to recapture the Joker for the last time.
•   'Interlude on Earth-Two' (The Brave and the Bold #182, January 1982) – The Earth-One Batman learns of the death of his Earth-Two counterpart. Hugo Strange kills himself. Final appearance of Kathy Kane/Batwoman. Final appearance of the Joker.

I've also got ideas for compilations detailing the Golden Age Batman's origin and evolution, plus a book collecting some of the most significant JSA adventures. If only DC would hire me as an editor...

[thecolorsblend]

I would buy that trade.

See, stuff like that is what makes Earth-2 work for me. You get to do crazy stuff like permanently kill off Batman without completely screwing up the DCU. You can advance the characters and the universe while still playing it safe with Earth-1.

And then there's the Huntress. I'm of the opinion (and I can't be alone on this one) that she and Power Girl never really recovered from Crisis. Helena probably had an easier time of it than Power Girl did but both of 'em had it rough in the late 80's.

*sigh* The Pre-Crisis DC had so much going for it. Yeah, I get it, they wanted to streamline the bazillion different Earths into something easier to understand with a single, unified continuity but (A) I don't think they ever really accomplished that and (B) I don't understand why they even bothered. DC isn't Marvel. Marvel isn't DC. Forgetting those two basic truths never goes unpunished, and in this case, the sins of the father are definitely being visited upon later generations.

It's just sad.

[Silver Nemesis]

I would buy that trade.

You, sir, have excellent taste. And I agree 100% about the Earth-Two comics. Seeing superheroes age and die is something we rarely experience in contemporary comics. The fact that the Earth-Two universe was considered passé freed up the writers to do whatever they liked. Unfortunately the only time we see that kind of freedom nowadays is in Elseworld titles.

Have you ever read America vs. The Justice Society (1985)? That's one of the best Golden Age Earth-Two stories. The plot concerns a secret journal of Batman's that is unearthed following his death. In this book he makes numerous accusations of misconduct against the JSA, retelling classic events in such a way that implicates himself and the other heroes in a variety of treasonous misdeeds. For example, it references the formation of the JSA and their first battle against Hitler, as originally depicted in 'The Untold Origin of the Justice Society' (DC Special #29, August 1977). Only now Batman claims that the JSA didn't fight Hitler at all; rather they were so impressed by his charisma that they signed up and secretly became Nazis. He also alleges that the money raised by the JSA in '$1,000,000 for War Orphans' (All-Star Comics #7, October 1941) was channelled to the Nazis to help fund their war efforts against America. And so on and so forth. Batman's journal goes on in this manner – referencing earlier JSA stories and corrupting the true sequence of events in order to vilify his comrades – and the end result is that the heroes are outlawed, à la Watchmen. They have to go into hiding while they search for the truth behind Batman's exposé.

I think they should collect America vs. the Justice Society, plus all the major stories it references, in a single massive trade paperback. It would be the ultimate JSA collection spanning over forty years of the comics. They could also include supplementary material explaining the background of the stories and the real life roles comics played during WWII (propagandising, promoting war bonds, encouraging recycling, etc). Just imagine the JSA Saga and Death of Batman, both restored and released in prestige format. It would be a great opportunity to teach some of the Dark Knight's lesser known history to the young Batman fans who've only ever read Frank Miller and Jeph Loeb. Don't get wrong, Miller and Loeb are very good. But there's so much more to Batman than just the Modern Age.

*sigh* The Pre-Crisis DC had so much going for it. Yeah, I get it, they wanted to streamline the bazillion different Earths into something easier to understand with a single, unified continuity but (A) I don't think they ever really accomplished that and (B) I don't understand why they even bothered. DC isn't Marvel. Marvel isn't DC. Forgetting those two basic truths never goes unpunished, and in this case, the sins of the father are definitely being visited upon later generations.

It's just sad.

I've got to be honest, I've never quite understood the point behind the whole Crisis on Infinite Earths thing. Between Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis and all the other major "event" storylines, haven't they more or less undone any streamlining anyway? What we're left with now is a confusing mess of timelines, parallel universes and retcons that only complicate things further. And Flashpoint certainly didn't help. So how is the DC universe any more streamlined or sensical now than it was thirty years ago?

[DarkestKnight]

 I think the quick reboot of SpiderMan, the double reboot of Superman and the (now 6) X-Men movies that have constant story archs and origins interest leaves the fan culture's thirst never fully quenched. And of course that is a very good thing for us fans and for the people profiting from it. But when you continually reboot the characters, it leads to destroying any contininous story narrative in the film series that I believe is far more enjoyable in the long run. It also helps when the same actors reprise the same roles during that time.

We were spoiled with that during the Nolan triligy and it really helped his story be that much more enjoyable. Gary Oldman is to Commissioner Gordon what Michael Keaton is to Batman. He proved to be that worthy and that valuable in the role and we as the audience benefited from his presence. I could easily say the same about Michael Caine and even Christian Bale, who definitely played a challenged and competant Bruce Wayne very well.

I think that's why most Batman fans I've spoken with all favor a multi-picture story arch with the same actors. Or a stand alone Batman film, possibly The Dark Knight Returns. And if they waited another 7-10 years, the timing would be right for someone to challenge Ledger for the Joker. An older, more devious Joker against a greyer, more troubled Bruce Wayne. It could work.

[thecolorsblend]

You, sir, have excellent taste. And I agree 100% about the Earth-Two comics. Seeing superheroes age and die is something we rarely experience in contemporary comics. The fact that the Earth-Two universe was considered passé freed up the writers to do whatever they liked. Unfortunately the only time we see that kind of freedom nowadays is in Elseworld titles.

Pretty much. And even there, the point of Elseworlds is to basically reinvent the character, not so much take different story paths with him.

Have you ever read America vs. The Justice Society (1985)? That's one of the best Golden Age Earth-Two stories. The plot concerns a secret journal of Batman's that is unearthed following his death. In this book he makes numerous accusations of misconduct against the JSA, retelling classic events in such a way that implicates himself and the other heroes in a variety of treasonous misdeeds. For example, it references the formation of the JSA and their first battle against Hitler, as originally depicted in 'The Untold Origin of the Justice Society' (DC Special #29, August 1977). Only now Batman claims that the JSA didn't fight Hitler at all; rather they were so impressed by his charisma that they signed up and secretly became Nazis. He also alleges that the money raised by the JSA in '$1,000,000 for War Orphans' (All-Star Comics #7, October 1941) was channelled to the Nazis to help fund their war efforts against America. And so on and so forth. Batman's journal goes on in this manner – referencing earlier JSA stories and corrupting the true sequence of events in order to vilify his comrades – and the end result is that the heroes are outlawed, à la Watchmen. They have to go into hiding while they search for the truth behind Batman's exposé.

Yeah, read it for the first time about a year ago. Not sure what I was expecting but that wasn't it. It felt like the comic book equivalent of a clip show. "Hey Dr. Fate, remember that time we were beating the piss out of Smash Man* (* the piss-beating took place in All Star #whatever) and Batman showed up and was acting funny? Could he have been under a magical spell or something do you think?" It felt like the intended purpose was to synthesize the stories being recapped but instead it comes off way too dry and technical for my tastes. Didn't really care for it.

I've got to be honest, I've never quite understood the point behind the whole Crisis on Infinite Earths thing. Between Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis and all the other major "event" storylines, haven't they more or less undone any streamlining anyway? What we're left with now is a confusing mess of timelines, parallel universes and retcons that only complicate things further. And Flashpoint certainly didn't help. So how is the DC universe any more streamlined or sensical now than it was thirty years ago?

On the face of it, I think the basic goal of Crisis was honorable enough. Eliminate the multiverse, create a single universe and develop a continuity that makes sense. Had Crisis been followed up by a hard universe-wide reboot, I think things would've turned out differently. But while Superman got the hard reboot, Hawkman was a clusterfvck, Batman weathered it but even his continuity was pretty vague, the Legion of Superheroes arguably never really recovered from Crisis and there are probably other problems too.

Maybe it's a Monday morning quarterback thing to say but it feels like some editor or publisher or something should've mandated a universe-wide reboot. Crisis was designed to be not just a continuity-killer but a universe-killer too. It's just that some writers refused to acknowledge that it had taken place. Had they done so, stuff like Zero Hour wouldn't have even been necessary.

I think Infinite Crisis and the like was unavoidable though. If certain writers were designed to eventually get the keys to the kingdom and if their goal was to reintroduce the multiverse, there's no way to avoid the pitfalls of Infinite Crisis.

Part of me can at least admire what Flashpoint set out to do in merging the mainstream DCU with Vertigo and Wildstorm all while rebooting a lot of characters but, like Crisis, the incomplete reboot is inevitably going to cause problems later. I realize people have an affection for stuff like Jason Todd being murdered by the Joker, Dick becoming Nightwing and all that stuff but the type of reboot that's needed pretty much requires throwing the baby out with the bath water. Who's to say that Batman might not benefit more than anybody from having a firm starting point now? Yeah, some fans will be ticked off but either you want ALL of this stuff to work or you don't.

Until or unless DC grows the necessary paired reproductive organs to do a hard reboot of the whole shebang, I don't think the situation will ever improve. The only other alternative I see (and this won't happen either) is to pick a month and year (February 1984 or something), restore the old Pre-Crisis continuity from that point, pretend as though the intervening 28 years never happened and resume where the continuity left off in that month/year.

Sigh...

[LongLiveTheBatman]

I agree the Batman Beyond series isn't my favorite, but it warms my heart to hear Uslan thinking this way. Keaton and Nicholson together.

Keaton as an 80 year old Bruce Wayne... love the idea. If we look at his acting career we know he could do anything with his acting.

Someone get the news out to more people. Even if it never happens, I'd love to hear what Keaton and Nicholson think about it.