Man of Steel

[thecolorsblend]

Agreed.

The Donner crowd who accept the Williams theme and nothing else are going to slam Zimmer regardless. So I feel a bit of, I don't know, sympathy on Zimmer's side here. Judging things by saying "he didn't make something as memorable as Williams thus he failed" is silly, frankly. His job is to capture the vibe of this 2013 movie. If he does so, the job will have been successful. So I say good luck to him. I wish him all the best, genuinely so. This new sound should've happened in 06.

The thing that gets me is that Superman has had other hero themes. Lois & Clark had a romantic one, STAS had that almost throwback/1940's tune and Smallville had a GREAT hero theme that was majestic and powerful. The Williams main title wouldn't have suited any of those shows. Superman is and can be something other than the Williams theme. As good as the entire Williams score is, it's limiting to say that Superman can only be that. It's like saying Batman can only be scored by Elfman when Schumacher, Nolan and other things prove otherwise.

[The Laughing Fish]

This doesn't have anything to do with the new film, but I found this six year-old Live Journal entry by Paul Dini where he gives a so-so review for Superman Returns, while expressing his disappointment that it took too much inspiration from the old Reeve films. And judging by these words, Dini seemed very fed up of the Reeve versions:

Yeah, I saw the new SUPERMAN movie.

Eh, it was okay.

Considering the train wreck it could have been it was outstanding, but as it was, to me at least, it was just okay.

Given Superman's history in comics, movies, radio, television and a dozen other places, I was disappointed that the filmmakers looked only as far as the two movies made in the late 70's for their inspiration. But Superman, both as a character and as an entire concept, is much richer than those films. Clark the bumbler, the barely developed Daily Planet staff (besides Lois), the Superman/Clark/Lois triangle, goddamn wacky Lex and his daffy henchmoll du jour, ugh. Enough. You clowns are spending, when all is said and done, 300 million dollars. Show me something I can't get at the video rental store.

Then again, I saw it for free, so what right do I have to complain?
http://kingofbreakfast.livejournal.com/31840.html

I wonder how he'll react to Man of Steel, assuming he'll ever bother with it at all?

[Bobthegoon89]

This doesn't have anything to do with the new film, but I found this six year-old Live Journal entry by Paul Dini where he gives a so-so review for Superman Returns, while expressing his disappointment that it took too much inspiration from the old Reeve films. And judging by these words, Dini seemed very fed up of the Reeve versions:

Yeah, I saw the new SUPERMAN movie.

Eh, it was okay.

Considering the train wreck it could have been it was outstanding, but as it was, to me at least, it was just okay.

Given Superman's history in comics, movies, radio, television and a dozen other places, I was disappointed that the filmmakers looked only as far as the two movies made in the late 70's for their inspiration. But Superman, both as a character and as an entire concept, is much richer than those films. Clark the bumbler, the barely developed Daily Planet staff (besides Lois), the Superman/Clark/Lois triangle, goddamn wacky Lex and his daffy henchmoll du jour, ugh. Enough. You clowns are spending, when all is said and done, 300 million dollars. Show me something I can't get at the video rental store.

Then again, I saw it for free, so what right do I have to complain?
http://kingofbreakfast.livejournal.com/31840.html

I wonder how he'll react to Man of Steel, assuming he'll ever bother with it at all?

Yikes. Haven't heard Dini with an attitude problem before. Kinda upsetting given my admiration for his work. I don't think it's his place to openly criticize. I'm sure there is plenty Nolan could express his dislike for in older Batman movies but professionally and respectfully never has. If I'm honest I think the "Dini versions" have been done to death too. He's right when he asks what right does he to complain, his own concepts, which I love as much as Reeve, are now as lengthy and old as any Reeve moment. The whole DC Animated Universe thing that's been going for years and years now. Perhaps this is the reason Bruce Timm recently stepped down from Warner's. It's all been done to death maybe it's time to change all that too sad as that will be.

Although Returns is no masterpiece I felt the filmmakers did at least try newer things: Clark's "son" for instance. While I wasn't keen on him assuming his father's mantle (as that hospital scene seemed to suggest) that concept was a genuine surprise revelation to me when I first saw the movie. They clearly would have developed it further in that sequel we'll never have. I think it would have been an interesting and personal (and human) challenge for Superman to deal with becoming a father. After several films having his life shaped by his own father's suddenly he's in that role. For me it could have been a nice "full circle" type thing. They were attempting to build something new (however controversial) for the future and using the Donner originals meantime as a jumping on point.

[Bobthegoon89]

Agreed.

The Donner crowd who accept the Williams theme and nothing else are going to slam Zimmer regardless. So I feel a bit of, I don't know, sympathy on Zimmer's side here. Judging things by saying "he didn't make something as memorable as Williams thus he failed" is silly, frankly. His job is to capture the vibe of this 2013 movie. If he does so, the job will have been successful. So I say good luck to him. I wish him all the best, genuinely so. This new sound should've happened in 06.

The thing that gets me is that Superman has had other hero themes. Lois & Clark had a romantic one, STAS had that almost throwback/1940's tune and Smallville had a GREAT hero theme that was majestic and powerful. The Williams main title wouldn't have suited any of those shows. Superman is and can be something other than the Williams theme. As good as the entire Williams score is, it's limiting to say that Superman can only be that. It's like saying Batman can only be scored by Elfman when Schumacher, Nolan and other things prove otherwise.

Yes but the final episode of Smallville used the Williams theme. They obviously felt there is just one kind of music to use in that final sequence. Otherwise why not just make their own? They understood the timelessness of that theme and the excitement it would provoke hearing it again. Why be ashamed of using it?

It may please you to know (given our disagreements on this subject) that I DID enjoy the music Zimmer has "apparently" written used in the new trailer. Nobody answered my question however: is this the real official music?

As for those other themes you mentioned I know them all (fans always do). But they are all unmemorable compared to the sound of Williams theme. The other pieces of music are themes only a fan could love. Not a general audience. In fact some non fans are wondering already on comment bars where the heck the old movie music is lol

Zimmer's battle can never be won let's face it. But if this music really is the new theme he's done alright. John Williams won't have trouble sleeping either so everyone's happy (unless there are people who are war winning fanboys lol). Part of my enjoyment of the new trailer was that it clearly won't "destroy" the Reeve pictures in whatever capacity and hasn't set out to do so on a conscious level. So I can go and enjoy it for what it provides. Full house!

[Bobthegoon89]

Despite "Man of Steel" being evidently influenced by Nolan's Batman vision, the latest trailer is nothing but aces with me. As it was, most definately, what Superman fans deserved back in 2006, but didn't receive.

Absolutely.

I am very pleased about the lack of trunks on this costume. But what do people think about the overall darker colour the suit has, ala in the interrogation scene?

I miss the yellow belt frankly. Which nobody seems to have spoken about at all. Yellow is the color they've gotten rid of the most apart from the background of the shield it seems. We're never going to get a brightly colored Superman on the screen ever again I don't think. Look around you, ever superhero is getting a darker hue on the screen these days. As for the trunks honestly I miss those too. Whereas Superman looked previously like he was wearing boxers over his blue pants now he just looks a little....naked!

I've always liked when artists put the all yellow shield on the back of the cape. For some reason this is the element that keeps disappearing the most. I'd have liked Cavill to have had one on the cape also. For some reason it makes the cape "pop" in design better.

[Bobthegoon89]

^Good rebuttal, colors. If you're human, robot, alien or whatever and bad...Superman will kick your ass. I don't see why he wouldn't. If you stand in his way, you can decide to get out of it. People have got to learn lessons. Learn not to do things. Getting a knock on the head is as good warning as any. Superman has values and morals, sure. But he's not Jesus Christ. He's a fighter for Earth and its people.

The music isn't outstanding, but it is uplifting...and somehow has gotten stuck in my head.

Agreed.

The Donner crowd who accept the Williams theme and nothing else are going to slam Zimmer regardless. So I feel a bit of, I don't know, sympathy on Zimmer's side here. Judging things by saying "he didn't make something as memorable as Williams thus he failed" is silly, frankly. His job is to capture the vibe of this 2013 movie. If he does so, the job will have been successful. So I say good luck to him. I wish him all the best, genuinely so. This new sound should've happened in 06.

Again I get robots. I get super powered villains. I slightly accept aliens. But humans? This is where you guys are losing me y'see? In an age where we are constantly being told realism must count in a superhero story you honestly feel Superman will kick the crap out of a human enemy? I mean physically beat him Batman style, as vicious as an artist can imagine? Because if we're talking about realism the chances are the human would be dead at the end of it lol

We're talking about a Hercules-like being, the most powerful man on the planet here. As a character that has always been written to be someone to aspire to I feel it's immensely out of character for DC writers to have Superman use untold force against any species lesser than him. Perhaps they have but to me that is a dreadful mistake. Writers and artists teams come and go at DC, they all have differing opinions on how to write a character situation I guess. And like filmmakers they don't always do the right thing. Roger Stern felt if Superman was selfish in exploiting his powers against humans he'd be our King, ruling humans. This is why we have characters like General Zod who enjoys abusing humans with his powers. It doesn't make any sense to me to have Superman do that also.

[thecolorsblend]

Yes but the final episode of Smallville used the Williams theme.

And maybe they shouldn't have.

They obviously felt there is just one kind of music to use in that final sequence.

They made it clear they did it for fans of that music and no other reason.

Otherwise why not just make their own?

They have. And see above.

As for those other themes you mentioned I know them all (fans always do). But they are all unmemorable compared to the sound of Williams theme.

They're not supposed to be remotely like the Williams theme. Again, L&C wanted to be a romantic theme first and foremost, STAS was intended to be a throwback and the SV theme was supposed to be over the top big and heroic. Each has their own identity. The Williams theme would clash with each of those depictions of Superman because the Williams theme isn't appropriate for everything. People who think it is are probably more in love with that version of Superman than Superman in general.

In fact some non fans are wondering already on comment bars where the heck the old movie music is lol

I think Singerman amply demonstrates how well-known the Donner version of Superman isn't. But even if non-fans are clamoring for the Williams theme, fvck 'em, they have five movies which utilize it.

Zimmer's battle can never be won let's face it.

Sure it can. All anybody needs to do is just give his stuff a fair chance and STFU about John Williams. Simple!

[The Dark Knight]

Thing is, there will be younger viewers who are not as  'indoctrinated' on the Williams theme. This movie will be their introduction.

It can't be done, so don't try. Defeatist logic and misses the point. Why would you use a theme which simply does not suit the visuals? The music worked in the context of the trailer. It was hopeful, driving and more importantly - a new sound for a new film continuity. Cut the cord on the Donner/Williams thing that frankly is rivalling or even surpassing the old Nolan nazi gang.

As I said before, if people say Zimmer failed because he didn't create an iconic score rivalling Williams, that's a simplistic and harsh way of looking at things. Looking back at his Batman scores, he did capture a particular mood that suited the films. As memorable as Elfman? I say no, but hey, they're completely different beasts with different aims. The job was done.

If a Zimmer Superman fan likes this score more than Williams, that's fine and not a crime punishable by hanging. It can't all be one way, that Willliams' score is the be all and end all, and everyone must praise it or be shouted down.

Yeah, I'm backing up Zimmer. The need for a new Superman sound for a relaunch has done that.

[thecolorsblend]

Again I get robots. I get super powered villains. I slightly accept aliens. But humans? This is where you guys are losing me y'see?

There is no shortage of precedent for it.

In an age where we are constantly being told realism must count in a superhero story you honestly feel Superman will kick the crap out of a human enemy?

I don't see why he wouldn't or shouldn't or what bearing "realism" has on the argument.

We're talking about a Hercules-like being, the most powerful man on the planet here.

Your argument then is that he can't control his strength well enough to smack a regular human around? If so, how would such a strong and powerful character, say, hug a non-powered person?

As a character that has always been written to be someone to aspire to I feel it's immensely out of character for DC writers to have Superman use untold force against any species lesser than him.

I don't see how a more aspirational Superman should be such a pacifist. He's chosen an odd line of work if that's how he feels.

Perhaps they have

Yes.  They have.

This is why we have characters like General Zod who enjoys abusing humans with his powers. It doesn't make any sense to me to have Superman do that also.

That's a bit of a false comparison. Zod's targets, his motives and lack of restraint are part of what distinguish him from Superman. Just because Zod might use his heat vision to fry a small child to death doesn't mean Superman shouldn't backhand some bank robber or something. His use of force was clearly understood and defined in the comics after DC became slightly less uptight about the comics code starting in the late 60's and lasted until just about the time Donner tried to convince us that Superman wouldn't smack a regular human around.

Nobody's arguing he should use lethal force; just that he could, would and has beat some serious ass when someone needs it. The historical record is simply not on your side here.

[Bobthegoon89]

Again I get robots. I get super powered villains. I slightly accept aliens. But humans? This is where you guys are losing me y'see?

There is no shortage of precedent for it.

In an age where we are constantly being told realism must count in a superhero story you honestly feel Superman will kick the crap out of a human enemy?

I don't see why he wouldn't or shouldn't or what bearing "realism" has on the argument.

We're talking about a Hercules-like being, the most powerful man on the planet here.

Your argument then is that he can't control his strength well enough to smack a regular human around? If so, how would such a strong and powerful character, say, hug a non-powered person?

As a character that has always been written to be someone to aspire to I feel it's immensely out of character for DC writers to have Superman use untold force against any species lesser than him.

I don't see how a more aspirational Superman should be such a pacifist. He's chosen an odd line of work if that's how he feels.

Perhaps they have

Yes.  They have.

This is why we have characters like General Zod who enjoys abusing humans with his powers. It doesn't make any sense to me to have Superman do that also.

That's a bit of a false comparison. Zod's targets, his motives and lack of restraint are part of what distinguish him from Superman. Just because Zod might use his heat vision to fry a small child to death doesn't mean Superman shouldn't backhand some bank robber or something. His use of force was clearly understood and defined in the comics after DC became slightly less uptight about the comics code starting in the late 60's and lasted until just about the time Donner tried to convince us that Superman wouldn't smack a regular human around.

Nobody's arguing he should use lethal force; just that he could, would and has beat some serious ass when someone needs it. The historical record is simply not on your side here.

Dude all I can say from all this is this advice, go and get yourself laid lol Seriously right now before you have yourself a heart condition. I mean you've got this weird fetish of absolutely hating anything to do with the Reeve Superman pictures. You understand we're talking f***ing movies and comics right? Or are you a retard by any chance? Now I'll accept somebody's opinion gladly but your tone on the subject I find unnecessarily harsh, unfriendly and slightly more creepy. I get the feeling your one of these daft f***s out on a mission on forums throughout the world to purge all trace of the Donner movies lol Good luck to yer pal! Do you not need psychiatric help? Some time away from chat forums should help.

I think you and I both know your intent here. Your tone in these messages above seems very much like a smart arse. I didn't feel like I'm having a mature discussion (hence my regression to childish name calling since that's a level your aiming for). So hopefully you'll sense my tone right now. I won't be having discussions with pricks trying to rule over message boards with their total opinion in place of others kay? Or ganging up on somebody to smash apart their views to suit their own. I have more of a life than to waste my time such as yourself doing that I'm afraid. I'm here for friendly discussion not heated debate or bullying competitions.

I had a similar run in like this once on imdb with a guy who went by the name "Unlimited Vertigo". Seemed to enjoy irritating serious fans by being the end all and be all of discussions. You wouldn't be that little sh*t stain by any chance huh? Wouldn't be too surprised. The nature of your responses to every line I previously wrote seems quite familiar. Either way your clearly one of these forum twats who likes to rule the roost so what's the difference eh? lol