Justice League

[BatmAngelus]

I think you could argue it goes even deeper than all that. Wonder Woman came to man's world and became a superhero. The Flash was doused in chemicals and lightning, boom, superspeed, so he became a superhero. Superman was sent to Earth, honed his powers and became a superhero. Green Lantern was chosen at random, drafted into the space cops and became a superhero.

Batman is unique among them not just because he doesn't have powers but because he chose this life. The other characters are what they are from a quirk of fate, an accident of birth, a million to one lab accident or whatever else. I don't think Batman would avoid the JLA. He might avoid the spotlight but he would elbow his way in to a group like that (A) to be their watchdog and (B) because, given his background, I think he'd genuinely believe they're screwed without his help, powers or no powers. There may be some ego behind that (which I'm okay with) but a guy with that kind of psychology... well, I personally don't think it's difficult to justify.

And let's be pragmatic, the JLA should be independent of all governments and political parties. Somebody has to bank roll their activities and even an Amazonian princess probably couldn't get the type of bank loans the League would need.

Agreed 100% with this (as well as greggbray's post above that).

Another thing that I'd like to point out is that Bruce Wayne vowed to war on all criminals, not just criminals in Gotham.  If there are bigger threats in the universe that threaten the safety of innocent people (or the entire world), then you can sure as hell bet he'd want to be a part of bringing them down.  The way that I see it (and other interpretations have shown), Batman would want to be a part of the Justice League as a necessity to stopping these threats, not because he wants to be social.

I also feel like Batman hasn't really been a true loner since 1939.  In 1940, Robin came in.  Then Alfred.  Then the Batman Family.  The Justice Society of America.  Then, the Justice League.  The Outsiders.  And now, Batman Inc. 

Say what you will about Grant Morrison's work, but he nailed it when Bruce Wayne returned "from the dead," with the realization that he's always had help in his life. 

I look at a major story arc like Knightfall and, lying beneath the whole Batman vs. Bane/Batman vs. Batman storyline, is the theme that Batman can't war on crime alone.  If Bruce hadn't kept pushing Robin away and insisting on taking everything on himself, he would've had the energy and the preparation to defeat Bane.  Instead, he took on everybody alone and didn't stand a chance when Bane arrived in Wayne Manor.

Now, there are practical reasons for this in the fact that it's much easier for Batman to fight crime if he's not the only one out on the streets.  But on a deeper level, this is a man who lost his family when he was a child.  He can never have any semblance of a normal life or the kind of family that Thomas and Martha had.  But his allies, whether they be Alfred, the Robins, Batgirl/Oracle, or the JL superheroes like Superman, are the closest family he can ever have and, again as someone who lost a family, it makes sense that he would accept them as part of his life, rather than reject them.

Personally, I don't question whether a JLA movie with Batman would work. 
But I do question whether WB, with their current track record and apparent desire to piggyback off Avengers by getting this JL movie out quickly, will pull off a JLA movie that works.  I really hope they do.

[ElCuervoMuerto]

I feel like it's too soon.

I love the idea of a Justice League film; one that has all the big seven in them (although given the new 52 timeline, they may end up swapping in Cyborg for Martian Manhunter, which would be a shame IMHO). And while I think that a team up film as a springboard for the other characters can work well on a conceptual/storytelling level, I'm not to sure it's the best idea on a business level. Frankly, I'm afraid that if we see a new cinematic Batman in 2015 in a JL film, some people in the mainstream are gonna be asking, "why isn't that JGL? Wasn't he gonna be Batman now?"

I can sense what WB is thinking, and in a way they're between a rock and a hard place. Any JL film they produce is gonna seem like an Avengers ripp off, so they don't want to ripp of their approach. But frankly, I feel like this is the best way to do it. Start with Superman, then go to Flash or WW, then Aquaman, then Batman and then do the team up film (they should probably re-introduce GL in the JL film, given the solo GL film's poor reception).

I think this approach is best since a) it's too soon for a cinematic Batman IMHO, and b) I really want them to take their time with the JL fil and make it the most awesome film they can. I want Avengers blown out of the water.

One of the things that irked me in the last Nolan film was 'Batman could be anybody.'  That's not quite true.  Anybody *could* be Batman if they were remarkable--like Bruce Wayne.  JL operates better for it.

It's one of the reasons I feel like TDKR "ruined" the Nolan series for me. Up until, it was pretty much "my Batman". But sorry, Batman can't just be anybody...

Personally, I don't question whether a JLA movie with Batman would work. 
But I do question whether WB, with their current track record and apparent desire to piggyback off Avengers by getting this JL movie out quickly, will pull off a JLA movie that works.  I really hope they do.

Bingo. I really don't want another Green Lantern, a film I was so looking forward to and I thought that they had nailed given the previews. And then it just flat out sucked.

[zDBZ]

My thoughts from another board:

I don't even get Batman with Robin, so unless he's a distant advisor and once-in-a-blue-moon, emergencies only reserve member, Batman with the Justice League makes no sense to me. Even within the DCU, I have troubles understanding just what the League is for and where its boundaries lie (why does Superman have to sacrifice himself to stop Doomsday, and why does Batman have to stop Ra's al Ghul from blowing up the Lazurus Pits alone, when the League is supposedly meant for these big threats?) I don't really have a great interest in a film based on this concept unless they can come up with a threat serious enough to justify all these heroes coming together, and again, Batman's role in such a gathering is iffy - I'd prefer him to be Elrond, not Legolas.

That said, I don't fear for the survival of the series if Batman ends up in a JL film.

If we can buy into the idea of an archer helping to turn back the alien invasion in Avengers, Batman fighting alongside the JLA should be an easy enough sell.

I don't really know much about the Avengers, so I can't comment on that. But I have no problem with Batman existing in the same universe as superpowered beings; my own preference is just that, were he in contact with the Justice League, he would take an advisory/reserve position rather than be on constant active duty in the Watchtower.

[thecolorsblend]

The "Avengers ripoff" thing is on the table no matter what. But what DC can do to mitigate it (and it may already be too late for this) would be to build toward Justice League of America even slower... or maybe in a more indirect way.

Movie 01- MOS
Movie 02- The Flash (Superman cameo)
Movie 03- Wonder Woman
Movie 04- Batman reboot (Wonder Woman cameo)
Movie 05- World's Finest (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 06- Green Lantern reboot (only two people saw the original so this will be an easy sell)
Movie 07- The Flash 2 (Batman cameo)
Movie 08- Trinity (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 09- Green Lantern 2 (Superman cameo)
Movie 10- Justice League of America

The above is a more gradual approach, it addresses the need for sequels while still presenting audiences with new stuff in each movie and it allows for a shared universe to be built up over time. Plus, you can explore different types of conflicts between the heroes with the pre-JLA team up movies. Not fights necessarily but conflicts.

[ElCuervoMuerto]

The "Avengers ripoff" thing is on the table no matter what. But what DC can do to mitigate it (and it may already be too late for this) would be to build toward Justice League of America even slower... or maybe in a more indirect way.

Movie 01- MOS
Movie 02- The Flash (Superman cameo)
Movie 03- Wonder Woman
Movie 04- Batman reboot (Wonder Woman cameo)
Movie 05- World's Finest (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 06- Green Lantern reboot (only two people saw the original so this will be an easy sell)
Movie 07- The Flash 2 (Batman cameo)
Movie 08- Trinity (Max Lord cameo)
Movie 09- Green Lantern 2 (Superman cameo)
Movie 10- Justice League of America

The above is a more gradual approach, it addresses the need for sequels while still presenting audiences with new stuff in each movie and it allows for a shared universe to be built up over time. Plus, you can explore different types of conflicts between the heroes with the pre-JLA team up movies. Not fights necessarily but conflicts.

I agree with that general outline except that I would not have cameos of one hero in another heroes film unless it served the film's plot. You can have little easter eggs here and there and post credits hints of the next movie sure, but I think a appearance by WW in a Bats film would undermine Batman and vice versa. While I do want the next Batman film series to be more "comic-booky" and within a cinematic DCU, I do think that overall solo Batman stories works best when presented in a more-or-less "realistic" context (think the comics work best this way too). Not talking a TDK level of realism, but think Batman 1989. I would also skip the Words Finest and Trinity films and go strait for JL. Lastly, I would either make the GL re-boot a sequel, or just skip GL altogether and make him the "Hulk" of the JL film.

[thecolorsblend]

You can have little easter eggs here and there and post credits hints of the next movie sure, but I think a appearance by WW in a Bats film would undermine Batman and vice versa.

I think you're missing the point. The idea is to have the cameos in each movie so that it's made plain that none exist in a continuity unto themselves. The shared universe angle has to be repeated in every film.

While I do want the next Batman film series to be more "comic-booky" and within a cinematic DCU, I do think that overall solo Batman stories works best when presented in a more-or-less "realistic" context (think the comics work best this way too). Not talking a TDK level of realism, but think Batman 1989.

...

B89 is realistic?

I would also skip the Words Finest and Trinity films and go strait for JL. Lastly, I would either make the GL re-boot a sequel, or just skip GL altogether and make him the "Hulk" of the JL film.

Again, you're missing the point. If the "Avengers ripoff" thing really is a concern for somebody, the WF and Trinity films bypass that by leading more slowly to a Justice League movie. Fact is that WF and Trinity are legitimate DCU concepts and I don't think there's any immediate counterpart for them in the Marvel universe. What you're proposing is basically a derivative of what Marvel has already done. I don't really have a dog in that fight either way but if it really bothers somebody, well, WF and Trinity are a way to make the build up more WB's own.

[zDBZ]

While I do want the next Batman film series to be more "comic-booky" and within a cinematic DCU, I do think that overall solo Batman stories works best when presented in a more-or-less "realistic" context (think the comics work best this way too). Not talking a TDK level of realism, but think Batman 1989.

...

B89 is realistic?

Relatively speaking, yes. There is a level of cartooniness to the humour (the Joker's giant gun) and a stylised art direction, but nothing as wild as, say, the Riddler's brain sucking machine, or even the ambiguity that surrounds Catwoman's origins in Returns.

[greggbray]

It's funny.  When B89 came out I recall there was this pretty wild reaction to it.  To the audiences of 1989 'Batman' was indeed a weird and far out film.  After the all of the comic book films that have appeared since, it looks relatively grounded and tame.  Nowhere near as over the top as Riddler's brain sucking machine, as Mr. Freeze's 'lets kick some ice' gun, or anything in the Marvel films.

I think it's a bit more grounded, but only on a relative scale.  On its own it still has some fantastic elements, but they're generally played down.

[thecolorsblend]

It's funny.  When B89 came out I recall there was this pretty wild reaction to it.  To the audiences of 1989 'Batman' was indeed a weird and far out film.

Yeah, see, that's how I remember it too. True, I was but a child but I remember thinking I'd never seen anything like that before and everyone else (young and old) was saying the same thing. If it wasn't the lighting, it was the back lot stuff. If it wasn't that, it was the use of matte paintings.  I remember someone saying Gotham City looked "amazing, like New York on drugs". In fact, I'd go so far as to say the (at the time) out there crazy production design and look of the sucker was one of the movie's bigger selling points.

I think it's a bit more grounded, but only on a relative scale.  On its own it still has some fantastic elements, but they're generally played down.

[ElCuervoMuerto]

I think you're missing the point. The idea is to have the cameos in each movie so that it's made plain that none exist in a continuity unto themselves. The shared universe angle has to be repeated in every film.

True, but I think there are ways to do that without a full blown character cameo unless it serves the story being told. For example, Howard Stark needed to be in Captain America, but Nick Fury and Black Widow felt superfluous to me in IM2, and it's one of the reasons I feel like that film is vastly inferior to it's predecessor. You can have winks, nudges, and after credits scenes, but I don't have cameos just for cameos sake.

B89 is realistic?

Like zDBZ said, I feel like relatively speaking yes it is. I would argue that it is as "realistic" as BB with it's "microwave" transmitter, and in fact more realistic than TDKR with it's back healed by a punch, major american cities being held hostage for months on end without any decisive government action, and with Bruce transversing the Atlantic with zero money. 

Again, you're missing the point. If the "Avengers ripoff" thing really is a concern for somebody, the WF and Trinity films bypass that by leading more slowly to a Justice League movie. Fact is that WF and Trinity are legitimate DCU concepts and I don't think there's any immediate counterpart for them in the Marvel universe. What you're proposing is basically a derivative of what Marvel has already done. I don't really have a dog in that fight either way but if it really bothers somebody, well, WF and Trinity are a way to make the build up more WB's own.

Ah yes, I did misread your post. Personally I have no problem with DCE going the full Marvel route with solo and then team up films, but it's my suspicion is that WB/DCE do and this is why they're doing the team up film first. The reason I would skip WF and trinity and go straight to JL is that well...if you're gonna do a team up, why not go all out you know?