The Controversy

[Bobthegoon89]

I'll never understand why so many people dislike the new origins of Catwoman and especially Penguin in Returns. They were so much more interesting and shocking. Sure they'll never be definitive...but they should be folks!

There's a selective "it wasn't that way in the comics" argument that gets made when it comes to Burton. But the poor guy was caught between a rock and a hard place. The Penguin in the comics up to then wasn't much of a character at all. As for Catwoman... well, she could've been a flight attendant with amnesia, a battered wife or a hooker.

What was Burton supposed to do exactly, Nolanites?

And while we're at it, how is Burton giving the Penguin flipper hands worse than taking Bane's venom away and making him into the LOS's lackey?

Well Catwoman's more "seedier" comic origins I still like and I'm pleased having read this sites recent articles on the movie to see a lot of the stuff DID come from the early early Batman books. Yeah! LOL Bane's venom! Even Schumacher gave us that.

But Penguin's comic book origins I find appalling. All this comic cliche stuff of oh I was bullied at school and they called me "Penguin". How many times have you seen that excuse done with other characters, the classic "name calling" thing. Even Scarecrow had it. I do like the explanation for why he carries umbrellas however which the movie mistakenly forgot to explain.

But the idea of the Penguin's family being a dark version of the Wayne's is a great idea. I love the fact they were both born to wealth (which also explains the whole Penguin obsession with status a lil better). Then you have the idea one was scarred by what happened to his parents, the other BY his own parents. Why DC never exploited that is beyond me. It wouldv'e made into some superb stories.

[Bobthegoon89]

Good videos. Also a good reminder of how much crap I'm willing to let WB slide by with when it comes to Batman. Some fans are kind of ticked off at how the pre-Nolan movies have been relegated to the dustbin but (A) it's only business, you can't blame them for wanting to most heavily promote (what was at the time) the new franchise and (B) dude, THEY DID US RIGHT with that mega DVD set from 2005. Swanky remastering work, remixed soundtracks, commentaries, expensive interviews and documentaries, the whole shebang. To this day, that set occupies a special place in my collection.

AMEN to that!!! When I saw that there were SE of the Batman movies coming out, I was beyond excited. I counted down the days, and I was at best buy when they opened to buy my copy of BR. I went home and popped that second disc in and was in heaven! Plus I'd NEVER seen the Face To Face video! I was so impressed and happy I went out about a week layer and bought B89. While I admit I was curious about BF & B&R, to this day I have yet to purchase them. WB knew what we wanted and they gave it to us!

It was on this very website in 2004 that I saw those dvd covers being previewed! My excitement was tremendous. I remember reading the list of extras that would be included. I did the same thing with the Face to Face video lol Mainly cos I had no clue what the band looked like. Still my favourite dvd documentaries.

I encourage you to purchase Batman Forever and Batman and Robin. I think you can do worser quite honestly. I've bought some real stinkers from Marvel such as Elektra and Punisher War Zone and Blade Trinity. All for slightly more money than what you get on those Bat dvd's with their documentaries. I found Joel Schumacher a nice guy with a great sense of humour. His commentaries are entertaining and pretty funny. Anyone remember his "Hey! It's a Batman movie!" line to the more over the top action moments? lol

There are some great deleted scenes on Forever you have to see. Namely a scene involving the destroyed Batcave (which I saw in a photo years ago in a magazine around it's release). The Batman and Robin dvd is more about what happens when a movie goes wrong kind of deal. Think Alien3 dvd!. But I have great sympathy for Schumacher as he explains what went wrong.

[thecolorsblend]

AMEN to that!!! When I saw that there were SE of the Batman movies coming out, I was beyond excited. I counted down the days, and I was at best buy when they opened to buy my copy of BR. I went home and popped that second disc in and was in heaven! Plus I'd NEVER seen the Face To Face video! I was so impressed and happy I went out about a week layer and bought B89. While I admit I was curious about BF & B&R, to this day I have yet to purchase them. WB knew what we wanted and they gave it to us!

There are some great deleted scenes on Forever you have to see. Namely a scene involving the destroyed Batcave (which I saw in a photo years ago in a magazine around it's release). The Batman and Robin dvd is more about what happens when a movie goes wrong kind of deal. Think Alien3 dvd!. But I have great sympathy for Schumacher as he explains what went wrong.

It's the honesty about B&R that makes the thing worth buying, if you ask me. None of us would've held it against WB if they'd skimped on B&R extras. But they still made commentaries, did those talking head interviews, etc. And frankly, some of it is kind of cool. There's explanations for why certain decisions got made. That doesn't change what went wrong with the movie but it does give you a glimpse into the reasoning behind that stuff. The movie... well, it is what it is but the extras are definitely worth checking out.

[thecolorsblend]

Me and my big mouth. I start talking about how awesome that set is and next thing you know I'm watching the Forever extras. Y'know, it's easy to forget just how dark Forever was a thematic/subject matter point of view. True, it's crammed to overflowing with neon and day-glo but underneath that stuff is a pretty interesting struggle for Bruce.

At this point, it would take a lot to destroy B89 and Returns for me. I don't think it's even possible to do anymore. They've long stood up to the test of time. Forever has stood up too but to a lesser degree. I mentioned that the civilians and mainstreamers still associated Adam West with Batman in 1992, hence the controversy with BR. Given the small homages here and there, I don't think it should be too big a surprise that Forever was more widely accepted. But if you peel the onion a little bit, the core story of Forever is pretty dark shyte. No, it ain't exactly BR or The Dark Knight but it's good stuff.

You look back on it all and there's a lot about Forever to enjoy. Yeah, I find the villains a bit annoying these days. Can't be avoided. But it's still an enjoyable Batman movie. Hell, even the "panther" Batman suit looks awesome. And rewatching those DVD extras is a good reminder that there is a lot to like about Forever.

[Kyle Grey]

Me and my big mouth. I start talking about how awesome that set is and next thing you know I'm watching the Forever extras. Y'know, it's easy to forget just how dark Forever was a thematic/subject matter point of view. True, it's crammed to overflowing with neon and day-glo but underneath that stuff is a pretty interesting struggle for Bruce.

At this point, it would take a lot to destroy B89 and Returns for me. I don't think it's even possible to do anymore. They've long stood up to the test of time. Forever has stood up too but to a lesser degree. I mentioned that the civilians and mainstreamers still associated Adam West with Batman in 1992, hence the controversy with BR. Given the small homages here and there, I don't think it should be too big a surprise that Forever was more widely accepted. But if you peel the onion a little bit, the core story of Forever is pretty dark shyte. No, it ain't exactly BR or The Dark Knight but it's good stuff.

You look back on it all and there's a lot about Forever to enjoy. Yeah, I find the villains a bit annoying these days. Can't be avoided. But it's still an enjoyable Batman movie. Hell, even the "panther" Batman suit looks awesome. And rewatching those DVD extras is a good reminder that there is a lot to like about Forever.

I should haven mentioned that while I don't own BF & B&R, I HAVE seen the extras. My buddy has the Bluray editions so I know whats on them, and it was fun to watch, but personally not enough to make me go out and buy.

I also feel the same about B89 & BR being pretty much "untouchable." Ive been defending my love for both, but mostly BR for 20 years now, and I still stand by my undying love for it-- hence why I'm here! I doubt any other incarnation of those characters (especially Catwoman) will ever leave the legacy those movies did. Now Heath's Joker does come close, and some would say it's even better, but while I agree it's a amazing performance, it just does't out do B89 for me.

There was just something very special about the summer of 89, and 92. I can't explain it really. It's just feelings and memories I have I suppose. BR is more significant to me because it left a legacy that included BTAS, and Catwoman's own comic title. Not to mention everything I went back to school with 20 years ago was Batman related! So funny since now it's exactly 20 years later and I still have most of that stuff!

It's really fans like us that keep the "signal" of these movies alive & bright.

[Bobthegoon89]

Me and my big mouth. I start talking about how awesome that set is and next thing you know I'm watching the Forever extras. Y'know, it's easy to forget just how dark Forever was a thematic/subject matter point of view. True, it's crammed to overflowing with neon and day-glo but underneath that stuff is a pretty interesting struggle for Bruce.

At this point, it would take a lot to destroy B89 and Returns for me. I don't think it's even possible to do anymore. They've long stood up to the test of time. Forever has stood up too but to a lesser degree. I mentioned that the civilians and mainstreamers still associated Adam West with Batman in 1992, hence the controversy with BR. Given the small homages here and there, I don't think it should be too big a surprise that Forever was more widely accepted. But if you peel the onion a little bit, the core story of Forever is pretty dark shyte. No, it ain't exactly BR or The Dark Knight but it's good stuff.

You look back on it all and there's a lot about Forever to enjoy. Yeah, I find the villains a bit annoying these days. Can't be avoided. But it's still an enjoyable Batman movie. Hell, even the "panther" Batman suit looks awesome. And rewatching those DVD extras is a good reminder that there is a lot to like about Forever.

I should haven mentioned that while I don't own BF & B&R, I HAVE seen the extras. My buddy has the Bluray editions so I know whats on them, and it was fun to watch, but personally not enough to make me go out and buy.

I also feel the same about B89 & BR being pretty much "untouchable." Ive been defending my love for both, but mostly BR for 20 years now, and I still stand by my undying love for it-- hence why I'm here! I doubt any other incarnation of those characters (especially Catwoman) will ever leave the legacy those movies did. Now Heath's Joker does come close, and some would say it's even better, but while I agree it's a amazing performance, it just does't out do B89 for me.

There was just something very special about the summer of 89, and 92. I can't explain it really. It's just feelings and memories I have I suppose. BR is more significant to me because it left a legacy that included BTAS, and Catwoman's own comic title. Not to mention everything I went back to school with 20 years ago was Batman related! So funny since now it's exactly 20 years later and I still have most of that stuff!

It's really fans like us that keep the "signal" of these movies alive & bright.

I've always said to other fans it's what you grew up with. For millions of young people today it will always be Heath Ledger rather than Nicholson. I think that's absolutely right. This Batman now is their generations, seeing it for the first time. However I'd still like those newer fans to then discover the earlier movies and get into them perhaps also. But it's understandable to me if Bale's should be their favourites. I had a disagreement about this subject on imdb (surprise surprise).  Some idiot believed newer fans should NEVER see any of the 4 previous movies as they are "not worth bothering with" lol

I hope newer fans won't be taken in with garbage like this. When I was very young and Michael Keaton had made his debut and was the cool and current face on the block it didn't stop my 2 year old self loving Adam West's version of Batman (the 1966 movie). That was the polar opposite at the time and I didn't care. Still loved it as much as the cooler moderner Batman action that was going on that summer. I'd like all fans to have that approach to rediscovering and loving the past, but I guess not all have that insight lol

[thecolorsblend]

My counter to that is that Nicholson played the Joker while Ledger played a brand new character called the Joker. Ledger did his job amazingly well but that character isn't the Joker.

I actually got into it with my brother over this. He took the pro-Ledger side, natch. I eventually played the "I've read these comics my entire GD life and the Joker is NOTHING like that" to which he replied "he's exactly like that". I then said "Dude, don't screw up the business model. I don't question you about sports trivia and statistics. So don't you question my comics acumen. Stick to your game jerseys and Superbowl Sundays, and leave the comics to me." Oddly, he had nothing to say to that.

[Kyle Grey]

I've always said to other fans it's what you grew up with. For millions of young people today it will always be Heath Ledger rather than Nicholson. I think that's absolutely right. This Batman now is their generations, seeing it for the first time. However I'd still like those newer fans to then discover the earlier movies and get into them perhaps also. But it's understandable to me if Bale's should be their favourites. I had a disagreement about this subject on imdb (surprise surprise).  Some idiot believed newer fans should NEVER see any of the 4 previous movies as they are "not worth bothering with" lol

I hope newer fans won't be taken in with garbage like this. When I was very young and Michael Keaton had made his debut and was the cool and current face on the block it didn't stop my 2 year old self loving Adam West's version of Batman (the 1966 movie). That was the polar opposite at the time and I didn't care. Still loved it as much as the cooler moderner Batman action that was going on that summer. I'd like all fans to have that approach to rediscovering and loving the past, but I guess not all have that insight lol

I know exactly what you mean. My dad grew up watching the Adam West show, and while that was "his Batman", the new movies he accepted as a fan also. He LOVED B89, and BR. BF he enjoyed as well, but not as much, and B&R he just found kiddie and silly. More so than the TV series. He does enjoy the new Bat films, as a 'modern' version, but then again, the 89-97 movies were the 'modern' version of then! So I will say it really all depends on the generation on which these movies are exposed to. I'm the oldest of 4 boys, and we ALL grew up with Batman in the house, from B89, to BTAS and TDKR! But we DO all have our favorites: Mine being BR, the B89, one of my brothers loves BF, while the younger two enjoy TDK, and the youngest even has a fondness for B&R.

As the executive producer Ben Melniker said "Batman fits into the dream of the young person. Batman fits into the entertainment desires of the old person. And as the fans grow older, they have a nostalgic feeling about how they felt about this project growing up over the years, and it never leaves them. So you have a generational audience all at one time, it's like they never get tired of baseball, they NEVER get tired of Batman! And I don't think they ever will"

And So right he is!

[greggbray]

^ Amen to that. 

Sorry, I haven't been here in a quite a while, so I haven't mastered the block quoting yet.  Though, to be fair, I'd probably quote this entire thread. 

[thecolorsblend]

^ Amen to that. 

Well well well, look what the cat dragged in...

Sorry, I haven't been here in a quite a while, so I haven't mastered the block quoting yet.  Though, to be fair, I'd probably quote this entire thread. 

See that "quote" button in the upper right hand corner of each post? Click it. Easy peezy!