The Controversy

[Bobthegoon89]

This is not totally about Batman Returns, but I watched B89 again for the first time in a long while, and it struck me how this would have felt in comparison to the 60s show. For example, Romero's Joker goes into an art gallery exhibit and vandalises with his own paint. He takes glee in it and then leaves. Then jump forward to 1989, and we have Nicholson's Joker gassing a museum and dancing around *dead* bodies. He takes glee in it as well, but the dead bodies is quite a jump. The 89 Batman film has death front and centre, eg. the "get a grin again, and again" commercial, and talking to fried corpses. IMO Burton presents the darkness of such acts but in a comicy way where it isn't totally offensive or confronting, but I can see how a kid who grew up on the 60s Batman would be taken back by it. And then BR came along.

Most of the marketing on that film was convincing people that this is not going to be Adam West style and instead more serious and darker. They rushed a trailer in mainly to quell the protests over Keaton- up until then he was a comedic actor, he needed to be shown as a serious Batman.

With returns the marketing is of course the topic at hand.

Forever was more marketable because it was deemed to be one the kids would like. And people were excited for Robin.

Batman and Robin- well the entire film is basically a toy commercial and people did want to see more of Robin. But there was quite a bit of hype.

Batman Begins perhaps wasn't marketed well but there wasn't a huge buzz. People liked it but it didnt set the world on fire the way any of the 4 previous films did.

I remember when Batman Begins came out there were jokes in major British sci-fi mags like SFX saying things like "don't expect any plush toys of Scarecrow after what happened last time". Well they were WRONG there lol There was merchandise though not on the same scale but I was delighted to see them market it in some way. Even though it was toys that brought Batman down in the first place I must say I loooove collecting the action figure lines for each one. As long as it doesn't get in the way of making the actual movie there is no harm in it and a Batman film wouldn't be as enjoyable without it. The mattel figure line they put out reminded me so much of the old Kenner figures. Like being a kid again trying to track em all down. That was when I knew Batman had truly...RETURNED! lol

"Merchandising! Where the real money from the movie is made" - Mel Brooks, Spaceballs.

[Bobthegoon89]

even 1995's batman forever; didnt stand the test of time but at the time people couldnt get enough of the film and the character. I'd be willing to bet there was more batman buzz in 1995 than there was in 2005. Not that this is necissarily Nolan's fault it had been 8 years since the last film and that one was a disaster.

2008 the dark knight was definitely popular although thats a great question is how much of it was Ledger and the joker?

the dark knight rises has been out for a month and already the hypes died down people are back to talking about the avengers.

I do remember quite a bit of hype over BF. Everything was green! I actually think there was a bigger hype over that then BR (as much as I don't like admitting that!). And B&R was total overkill. I mean every character (except for Bane) got their face on EVERYTHING!!!  But like you said, it's not reeeaaallllly the Batman character, it's everything else. People had seen Batman after 2 movies. Sure this was a new actor, but we'd seen it. But this time...there was ROBIN!!! While Riddler was "the main" villain, I was more excited to see Two-Face, someone not yet seen in live action. As with B&R, Poison Ivy wasn't someone we'd seen yet (which I think she did a great job considering the rest of the film).

This time around though, the Batman hype wasn't as great I felt. Sure I was excited seeing Catwoman on screen again, but I guess I was kinda hoping for some nostalgic feeling of what happened 20 years ago. There was sooo much success and hype created by TDK, that even the 2:45 running time didn't live up to this movie I felt. Yes it was good. But the 2nd & 3rd time i saw it, I passed out at the same part-- both times: ACT 2! It could be because I saw late night showing but still.

TDK just had a longer lasting impression because there was no big build up hype. I think most people were kinda of turned of by Heath's Joker at first, but then he died, and his performance was spectacular! So the bar was set. You can't write Bane or even Catwoman like you can Joker. I don't really here many people saying how amazing Anne was honestly. I still here "Hathaway was good, but Pfeiffer was better!".

Another thing about the hype with these movies, B89 was huge and left a lasting positive impression; thus paved the way for BR. When that movie didn't live up to "social media standards", it was time to revive the franchise again-- thus BF came along and brought something new...and bright! Sadly as we all know, B&R killed it, and it was reborn in 2005 with BB. It's a vicious cycle it's seems. Especially since there is so much to live up to, yet creators still have to find away to make it theirs. I feel it's time to let the bat rest for awhile before we let him out of the cave again.

Ve Neil who was Danny Devito's make up artist (and worked on Forever) said in the official making of book that she felt there was something about the movie that made it feel bigger than Batman Returns. In fact part of the design of Bo Welch's Gotham City for Returns was for the viewer to actually imagine what the rest of the place looked rather than the crew creating a vast expanse. So I think Batman Returns was deliberately designed to be a smaller movie in actuality but ended up looking much bigger on the screen.

It was the idea of seeing Batman and Robin fighting together again on screen that got the world jazzed (myself included). Remember my dad and myself enjoying the movie but waiting and waiting throughout for the real appearance of the Boy Wonder. Finally when he at last appears in the Batcave for the very finale we both looked at other, sat up straighter in our seats and were like "now we're in business here!" lol Great memory. I think the way Robin was handled is now a little underrated myself. I'm glad they took their time setting him up rather than just rushing him into the events which they do so much of today. And some who try to follow Forever's "end of movie" surprise do a far worser job. Anybody remember Venom at the end of Spidey 3? Jeez! I think this is why I personally enjoyed Two-Face's limited appearance in Dark Knight. The set up had been so good and meanigful it didn't matter.

I'm glad Nolan used Catwoman and I admire Hathaway but she never even came close to Pfeiffer in my book. God I HATE that costume lol I find it amusing the Catwoman Nolan wanted to do is the very same version Daniel Waters chose to avoid at all cost back in 1992. The tough as nails woman who merely throws on a costume. Pfeiffer's Selina Kyle was so much more interesting and tragic to watch in both personalities. They have the cheek in "The Making of the Dark Knight Trilogy" book to say Hathway's Catwoman was "more nuanced than past incarnations". Yeaaaaah right! lol Not what I saw thank you very much. Maybe the tv Catwomen but not Ms Pfeiffer.

I'll never understand why so many people dislike the new origins of Catwoman and especially Penguin in Returns. They were so much more interesting and shocking. Sure they'll never be definitive...but they should be folks!

[thecolorsblend]

I'll never understand why so many people dislike the new origins of Catwoman and especially Penguin in Returns. They were so much more interesting and shocking. Sure they'll never be definitive...but they should be folks!

There's a selective "it wasn't that way in the comics" argument that gets made when it comes to Burton. But the poor guy was caught between a rock and a hard place. The Penguin in the comics up to then wasn't much of a character at all. As for Catwoman... well, she could've been a flight attendant with amnesia, a battered wife or a hooker.

What was Burton supposed to do exactly, Nolanites?

And while we're at it, how is Burton giving the Penguin flipper hands worse than taking Bane's venom away and making him into the LOS's lackey?

[Kyle Grey]

I'm glad Nolan used Catwoman and I admire Hathaway but she never even came close to Pfeiffer in my book. God I HATE that costume lol I find it amusing the Catwoman Nolan wanted to do is the very same version Daniel Waters chose to avoid at all cost back in 1992. The tough as nails woman who merely throws on a costume. Pfeiffer's Selina Kyle was so much more interesting and tragic to watch in both personalities. They have the cheek in "The Making of the Dark Knight Trilogy" book to say Hathway's Catwoman was "more nuanced than past incarnations". Yeaaaaah right! lol Not what I saw thank you very much. Maybe the tv Catwomen but not Ms Pfeiffer.

I'll never understand why so many people dislike the new origins of Catwoman and especially Penguin in Returns. They were so much more interesting and shocking. Sure they'll never be definitive...but they should be folks!

I suppose for me, BR was my introduction to Catwoman. So I see nothing wrong with it. Imagine that moving coming out today? First, Michelle is blonde, second, she's not a hooker, and third, she not flippin crazy either! Many would argue that she's not REALLY a thief, where Anne was. And that was the first thing I noticed, Anne's Catwoman is everything Michelle's isn't! Which is why Michelle is still THE best! I have a few vintage Michelle shirts that Ive been rocking recently, and I also bought a few Anne ones as well-- let me just say I get a better response from the Michelle shirts than I do the Anne ones. Hell, even Tim Burton admits that Michelle is THE greatest performance he's ever seen in his movies! And he cast Johnny Depp in like almost everything it seems! Anne's Catwoman was good, but nothing incredibly interesting or exciting compared to Michelle's.

I think there are times when risks like this work, and other times...it doesn't. Personally, I loath and love X3. I love it because Jean FINALLY becomes Phoenix, but it's HOW they go about it that I loath. That was a time i don't feel it worked. i was that angry fan boy saying "thats not how it happened." Yet I love BR Catwoman. So again, all depends on HOW these movies go about the characters.

[Kyle Grey]

I'll never understand why so many people dislike the new origins of Catwoman and especially Penguin in Returns. They were so much more interesting and shocking. Sure they'll never be definitive...but they should be folks!

There's a selective "it wasn't that way in the comics" argument that gets made when it comes to Burton. But the poor guy was caught between a rock and a hard place. The Penguin in the comics up to then wasn't much of a character at all. As for Catwoman... well, she could've been a flight attendant with amnesia, a battered wife or a hooker.

What was Burton supposed to do exactly, Nolanites?

And while we're at it, how is Burton giving the Penguin flipper hands worse than taking Bane's venom away and making him into the LOS's lackey?

Here's the Character Bios from the SE DVD/Blu Ray that talks about that.

CATWOMAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QGH9xuggKg&feature=colike

PENGUIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq44V4RBLRg&feature=colike

[thecolorsblend]

Good videos. Also a good reminder of how much crap I'm willing to let WB slide by with when it comes to Batman. Some fans are kind of ticked off at how the pre-Nolan movies have been relegated to the dustbin but (A) it's only business, you can't blame them for wanting to most heavily promote (what was at the time) the new franchise and (B) dude, THEY DID US RIGHT with that mega DVD set from 2005. Swanky remastering work, remixed soundtracks, commentaries, expensive interviews and documentaries, the whole shebang. To this day, that set occupies a special place in my collection.

[Kyle Grey]

Good videos. Also a good reminder of how much crap I'm willing to let WB slide by with when it comes to Batman. Some fans are kind of ticked off at how the pre-Nolan movies have been relegated to the dustbin but (A) it's only business, you can't blame them for wanting to most heavily promote (what was at the time) the new franchise and (B) dude, THEY DID US RIGHT with that mega DVD set from 2005. Swanky remastering work, remixed soundtracks, commentaries, expensive interviews and documentaries, the whole shebang. To this day, that set occupies a special place in my collection.

AMEN to that!!! When I saw that there were SE of the Batman movies coming out, I was beyond excited. I counted down the days, and I was at best buy when they opened to buy my copy of BR. I went home and popped that second disc in and was in heaven! Plus I'd NEVER seen the Face To Face video! I was so impressed and happy I went out about a week layer and bought B89. While I admit I was curious about BF & B&R, to this day I have yet to purchase them. WB knew what we wanted and they gave it to us!

[Kyle Grey]

Here's some of that amazing artwork that was on the McDonalds banners. Found these on eaby for bout a grand each!





And this is just a bonus piece of artwork also for sale I thought was sweet!

[The Dark Knight]

^ The pics aren't showing up for me, Kyle Grey.

And while we're at it, how is Burton giving the Penguin flipper hands worse than taking Bane's venom away and making him into the LOS's lackey?

Indeed. I find the Nolan Bane curious. He's standing up for a dead man and his so called legacy (which Bane doesn't properly grasp, proving Ras correct about the guy) when he wasn't respected in the first place. I like the idea of a Bane who was kicked out and says screw you Ras and LOS. Thus he creates his own band of followers and does his own thing for his own reasons, not for someone else's.

I like Hathaway's Selina and think she provides fun and energy to an otherwise dull/bleak film. She probably is the best part of it. But the limited screen-time is a factor which goes against her. There's just not enough there, IMO. And that's a real shame, because Hathaway would've been ready and able to provide the goods if the script was expanded for her.

I don't feel any big rivalry here in the same way as Nicholson and Ledger. I don't dislike TDKR's version and I like BR's version - which is still my favourite. Though I think Burton's script provided the bigger, longer moments for an actress to get into (eg. trashing the apartment, wanting Max's blood in the finale). I just wish Hathaway had more to do. More time for her, and less time for Blake, Foley and these characters.

[riddler]

this is just a blanket statement for comic fans sentiment about comic movies which may apply more to Nolanites;

they are very selective about their "it wasnt that way in the comics" argument; all comic films change SOMETHING, simply put the fans will forgive the changes if they like the films and criticize them if they don't.
-in the Raimi spider-man trilogy, people who liked them don't mind the lack of web shooters, people who didn't will criticize it. Likewise fans of the new film will claim the presence of web shooters makes it better.