what kind of film should the next one be? (TDKR spoilers)

[Silver Nemesis]

Your take on Killer Croc sounds a lot more layered than mine. I was basically going to have him play a small but significant role in the first half of the film, sort of like Joe Chill's role in Batman Begins. But your version sounds a lot more interesting and sympathetic.

I don't want to play the 'realism' card, but I generally prefer the more grounded depiction of Killer Croc as opposed to the Lizard-clone he's become in some of the more recent comics. So this is one character I might actually Nolanise.

Are there any other comics that explore Haly's?

There were loads of Pre-Crisis Robin stories featuring Haly's Circus. But the best recent story would be Night of the Owls. I don't want to say too much in case I spoil the plot for you. But suffice it to say it explores the historical background of the circus, as well as the history of the Grayson bloodline. It's well worth a read.

[riddler]

As far as casting goes – well, I've said this in other threads, but I'll say it again now – Jim Caviezel should be the next Batman. He's physically perfect for the part: 6'2, with black hair, blue eyes and chiselled jaw line – exactly like the Bruce Wayne in the comics. I was going to say he should bulk up a bit, but I saw a recent interview with him where he mentioned his weight was 210lbs, which is exactly the same weight as the Bruce Wayne in the comics. He fits the role 100%.

Add to this his athletic background – former college basketball player, trained extensively in martial arts when he was growing up, and recently trained with Special Forces units for his role on Person of Interest. He can also do a low menacing voice without sounding silly. And to top it all off, he's a damn good actor. I also like the fact he has distinctive parenthesis lines around his mouth like Keaton, which is how many artists draw Batman's lower face in the comics. He'd be in his mid forties by time filming commenced. But that wouldn't be a problem if they went with the Robin-origin angle.

And he should wear a costume similar to the one from the Arkham games. Armoured, but with the classic colour scheme from the comics. Kind of like this:

As far as the title goes, I'd call the movie Batman and Robin. It's simple, it's iconic and it would expunge the memory of the 1997 film.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

Genius. I'll add something to that; what's the biggest complaint about Bale as Batman? Easily his annoying bat voice. Well Caviezel has used quite a few different types of voices on screen and I'm not talking about different accents either. Watch person of interest, deja vu, and frequency. He does seem to have 1 voice reserved for villain roles. So he could easily handle the voice masking criteria without sounding silly or annoying the way Bale does.

[Silver Nemesis]

Genius. I'll add something to that; what's the biggest complaint about Bale as Batman? Easily his annoying bat voice. Well Caviezel has used quite a few different types of voices on screen and I'm not talking about different accents either. Watch person of interest, deja vu, and frequency. He does seem to have 1 voice reserved for villain roles. So he could easily handle the voice masking criteria without sounding silly or annoying the way Bale does.

My thoughts exactly. The key to doing an intimidating voice is to make it sound like it's your natural voice. As soon as it becomes obvious it's an affectation, it starts to sound silly.

I'd also cite Caviezel's performance in The Count of Monte Cristo (2002) as evidence of his suitability, as in that film he portrays a playboy/dual persona character very effectively. He's also physically larger than any of the previous Batman actors, and unlike his predecessors he'd have some legitimate martial arts training to showcase in the fight scenes.

Honestly, I think if anyone could be the definitive live-action Batman, it's this guy. I'll be disappointed if Warner Bros casts anyone else in the role, which they almost certainly will. Fortunately I've seen a few people on other sites putting his name forward for the role, so maybe Warner Bros will hear us and take note.

[thecolorsblend]

Honestly, I think the guy's opportunity is long gone. He's 43 right now. Best case scenario, we get a Batman reboot in 2015, by which time he'll be 46.

I don't question the guy's talent or (once upon a time) suitability but we should probably be realistic here.

[BatmAngelus]

Indeed.  As much as I'd love to see Caviezel (and I agree completely about the voice), as well as another fan favorite Jon Hamm, in the role, I have my doubts we'll see anyone over 40 in the cape and cowl by the time they get this rolling.

I had an idea that Jason could actually be the first Robin. It would be a mystery what had happened to him. Only Batman and Alfred would know his true fate, while everyone else would assume he was dead. Bruce's reluctance to train Dick Grayson would be similar to Yoda's reluctance to train Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back; he's already seen one apprentice fall and he doesn't want it to happen again.

The Red Hood could show up in one of the sequels and Batman would insist on fighting him alone. Dick would then uncover the truth about his predecessor – that  Jason Todd is the Red Hood, the original Robin. It would also make the Joker more intimidating if he'd already "killed" one Robin before even appearing on screen.

I find this idea very intriguing, but I'm a bit wary of Jason being the one first connected to the Robin name and outfit.  I feel that the name and persona would come from Dick and that Jason would've come up with a different name and attitude if he had been Batman's first partner.

Your take on Killer Croc sounds a lot more layered than mine. I was basically going to have him play a small but significant role in the first half of the film, sort of like Joe Chill's role in Batman Begins. But your version sounds a lot more interesting and sympathetic.

I don't want to play the 'realism' card, but I generally prefer the more grounded depiction of Killer Croc as opposed to the Lizard-clone he's become in some of the more recent comics. So this is one character I might actually Nolanise.

Thanks. 

And I agree about a more grounded depiction simply because when Croc was first introduced, he was a man born with a skin condition.  On film, he should look that way.  I'm actually glad The Amazing Spider-Man did The Lizard already since, if Croc were to ever make it on film, I'd think they'd try to make him look more human to avoid comparisons.

I think Killer Croc should, despite his skin condition, still look very much human.  The version in Azzarello and Bermejo's Joker looks a little too normal for my taste, but something along these lines (Croc's earlier appearances) would be best:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/158451-46215-killer-croc.JPG

[Silver Nemesis]

Honestly, I think the guy's opportunity is long gone. He's 43 right now. Best case scenario, we get a Batman reboot in 2015, by which time he'll be 46.

I don't question the guy's talent or (once upon a time) suitability but we should probably be realistic here.

I don't for a second believe they really will cast someone like Caviezel or Hamm. Nor do I think they'll use the grey and blue costume from the comics or adapt villains exclusive to the New 52 canon. These are just things I'd like to see in the next film. My dream Batman project, if you will.

It seems to me that most fans are satisfied with Nolan's take on the Batman universe and don't want to see a reboot at all. I reckon casting an actor in his forties might help take the sting out of the idea. It would make the new films feel less like a retread of what Nolan's just done and more like a progression of sorts; quasi-sequels that show what might have happened if Bruce hadn't retired at the end of TDKR.

Prior to Flashpoint, the Batman in the comics was aged around his late forties/early fifties and yet was still considered to be in his prime. The Millerverse/Earth-31 Batman was in his mid to late forties when Robin was killed. The original Golden Age Batman was 61 when he burnt his costume and formally retired as Batman. And even then, he still donned the cowl for one more battle when he was 64.

Batman doesn't need to be in his twenties or thirties. Not unless they're re-telling the origin story, which I'm hoping they'll avoid doing. It's different for Superman and Spider-Man, as Superman isn't meant to age like an ordinary human, and Spider-Man is meant to be a youth-oriented hero. But many of Batman's best stories take place when he's in his forties (including the majority of story arcs from the 1990s and 2000s). And if the best actors for the part happen to be in that age bracket, then I say go for it.

Let's not forget Michael Keaton was 38 when he shot the first film, yet he was meant to be playing a Batman who was just starting out. Had he starred in Batman Forever, he would have been around 43 or 44 at the time. Adam West was 50 when he played Batman in The Legends of the Superheroes miniseries. So I really don't think Caviezel is too old to play the part. He's also quite popular at the moment thanks to his work on Person of Interest and his upcoming role as the villain opposite Sly and Arnold in The Tomb (2013). Now would be the perfect time to cast him.

A lot of people want a film along the lines of The Dark Knight Returns focusing on the adventures of an older Batman. Some people want a retelling of the young Batman's early exploits. What I'm suggesting is something in between; a middle-aged Batman in his prime, and a youthful Robin just starting out. That's something we haven't seen in a film before. And I think it would be a refreshing approach to the mythos. I understand your point about Warner Bros almost certainly casting someone young in the role. But I believe, from a creative standpoint, it would be more interesting to try something a little more left field.

I find this idea very intriguing, but I'm a bit wary of Jason being the one first connected to the Robin name and outfit.  I feel that the name and persona would come from Dick and that Jason would've come up with a different name and attitude if he had been Batman's first partner.

I see what you mean. My idea is that the first Robin has become something of an urban legend, a myth that no one is sure ever really existed. It would be a rumour circulating amongst the criminal element – a legend that Batman once had a costumed ally who dressed in red and black. There'd be graffiti on alleyway walls throughout the city depicting a boy dressed in these colours, with the fresh red paint running down the brickwork like trickling blood. Batman would react nervously whenever he sees these images, as though haunted by a traumatic memory from his past. Dick would ask Alfred if the rumour of Robin's existence has any truth to it, and Alfred would caution him against inquiring about the subject further.

Towards the end of the film, the security of Wayne Manor would be compromised and Bruce would order Alfred and Dick to hole up in the Batcave while he goes for a showdown with the Court's Talons. In his absence, Dick would wander through the cave and stumble across the display cabinet containing the bloodstained costume of the first Robin. Without asking for Alfred's permission, he'd don the suit and sneak away to help Batman in the final fight (similar to how the Post-Crisis Jason stole Dick's old costume, or how Damien Wayne used elements from Jason's suit as the basis for his own). Batman would initially be horrified when he sees the boy wearing the suit, but he'd gradually come to terms with Dick's vocation as a crime fighter (similar to his acceptance of Tim Drake in A Lonely Place of Dying). Dick would get his own costume at the end of the movie featuring the traditional red, green and yellow colour scheme from the comics.

I thought perhaps Jason's Robin could actually be referred to as 'Red Robin' to distinguish his costumed persona from Dick's. That way the colour red could be a visual motif symbolising Bruce's guilt over what happened to Jason (the red of Jason's costume, the red of the blood, the paint, etc). The red motif would come back to haunt him when Red Hood shows up in one of the sequels. It would also connect Jason's two costumed identities: Red Robin and Red Hood. By contrast, I'd have Dick's costume as the classic red, yellow and green Robin suit.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head, so they aren't terribly well developed or anything. I'm just rambling.

I think Killer Croc should, despite his skin condition, still look very much human.  The version in Azzarello and Bermejo's Joker looks a little too normal for my taste, but something along these lines (Croc's earlier appearances) would be best:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/158451-46215-killer-croc.JPG

Yeah, I wasn't keen on Azzarello and Bermejo's Killer Croc. Or anything else from that book, for that matter. I think Conway and Colan's original take on the character is still the best. And that's the version I'd like to see serve as the basis for the live-action incarnation.

[BatmAngelus]

Prior to Flashpoint, the Batman in the comics was aged around his late forties/early fifties and yet was still considered to be in his prime. The Millerverse/Earth-31 Batman was in his mid to late forties when Robin was killed. The original Golden Age Batman was 61 when he burnt his costume and formally retired as Batman. And even then, he still donned the cowl for one more battle when he was 64.

Batman doesn't need to be in his twenties or thirties. Not unless they're re-telling the origin story, which I'm hoping they'll avoid doing. It's different for Superman and Spider-Man, as Superman isn't meant to age like an ordinary human, and Spider-Man is meant to be a youth-oriented hero. But many of Batman's best stories take place when he's in his forties (including the majority of story arcs from the 1990s and 2000s). And if the best actors for the part happen to be in that age bracket, then I say go for it.

Let's not forget Michael Keaton was 38 when he shot the first film, yet he was meant to be playing a Batman who was just starting out. Had he starred in Batman Forever, he would have been around 43 or 44 at the time. Adam West was 50 when he played Batman in The Legends of the Superheroes miniseries. So I really don't think Caviezel is too old to play the part. He's also quite popular at the moment thanks to his work on Person of Interest and his upcoming role as the villain opposite Sly and Arnold in The Tomb (2013). Now would be the perfect time to cast him.

A lot of people want a film along the lines of The Dark Knight Returns focusing on the adventures of an older Batman. Some people want a retelling of the young Batman's early exploits. What I'm suggesting is something in between; a middle-aged Batman in his prime, and a youthful Robin just starting out. That's something we haven't seen in a film before. And I think it would be a refreshing approach to the mythos. I understand your point about Warner Bros almost certainly casting someone young in the role. But I believe, from a creative standpoint, it would be more interesting to try something a little more left field.

These are all great points and I'd certainly like to see it happen.  Plus, I think an older Batman actor makes more sense for a Robin origin film than an actor in his late 20s/early 30s.

I thought perhaps Jason's Robin could actually be referred to as 'Red Robin' to distinguish his costumed persona from Dick's. That way the colour red could be a visual motif symbolising Bruce's guilt over what happened to Jason (the red of Jason's costume, the red of the blood, the paint, etc). The red motif would come back to haunt him when Red Hood shows up in one of the sequels. It would also connect Jason's two costumed identities: Red Robin and Red Hood. By contrast, I'd have Dick's costume as the classic red, yellow and green Robin suit.

This crossed my mind, too.  And while Tim Drake is the one associated with Red Robin at the moment, Jason actually wore the suit before him in Countdown to Final Crisis, so this would just be a tie back to that.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Red Robin outfit in live action, actually (The original one, not the New 52 one that Drake wears now).  One thing that it has over the traditional Robin suit is, well, head protection.  I'd imagine Bruce would want his young partner to be even more protected than he is, when it comes to these costumes.  I also kinda like how the RR cowl resembles a bird's head just like Batman's cowl resembles a bat's.  You could even make the nose protrude a tiny bit more, to give a beak-like appearance and give him a notable silhouette.

Still, it might be too much of a far cry from the original Robin imagery to be used as Robin's actual live action suit.  But, at the risk of sounding like I'm "Nolanizing" the character, if we were to go with the more traditional Robin suit (i.e. Dick wearing the 90s Tim Drake suit), how would you explain Batman allowing this kid to combat criminals with only a domino mask?

[riddler]

definitely if they go with Robin they should go with Dick Grayson or Jason todd. Dick could lead to nightwing while Jason eventually the red hood.

[Silver Nemesis]

And while Tim Drake is the one associated with Red Robin at the moment, Jason actually wore the suit before him in Countdown to Final Crisis, so this would just be a tie back to that.

Good point. And Dick Grayson wore the costume before either of them in Kingdom Come (1996), though I guess that doesn't count since it's not part of the main canon. Of all the Robin costumes, the Red Robin outfit is probably the one that would work best in live action. It's got a darker colour scheme than the other suits and is closer in overall design to Batman's outfit. And as you say, the cowl offers more protection than the domino mask, so it makes more sense from a practical perspective.

Even so, I still like the classic Dick Grayson Robin suit best.

Yes, it's ridiculous. But it's iconic. And I'd like to see it appear in the next live-action movie or TV show, even if it's just for the Flying Graysons circus scenes.

More than anything though, I want the next movie to include some version of the classic Batman suit from the comics. I'd prefer it to be blue and grey, but I'll be happy with black and grey. Just as long as it's not all black. The all black suit was fine to begin with, but we've seen it in seven movies now. I think an appearance from the classic suit is long overdue.

[BatmAngelus]

Indeed.  The reason why I'm hesitant to outright say "Robin's suit should be the Red Robin outfit onscreen" is because I'd like the next film to stick to the iconic comic book looks for once, in the vein of how Iron Man and Raimi's Spider-Man looked like the comic book heroes brought to life.  Seeing Batman and Red Robin onscreen, while cool, just wouldn't feel as iconic as seeing Batman and Robin.

To me, what's tricky about Robin's outfit isn't so much how people find it ridiculous.  It's the Batman factor.  It's reasoning why Bruce would let a boy fight crime with him in a suit that is, let's face it, incredibly dangerous.  The bright colors make him a moving target.  He has no head protection (or leg protection if we go with the classic 1940s suit).  His mask can barely conceal his identity.  It's not a question of realism, so much as questioning why Bruce would take the risk in letting a teenager fight armed criminals this way.  Using the more modern suits, such as Tim Drake's 1990s one or even the black and red update, would help a bit, but there's still the head protection/mask factor that I feel would be an issue with Bruce.

I think the Red Robin suit is a nice compromise because it's still comic-faithful while more practical and seemingly more protective.  But again, I don't think it's as good as getting the actual Robin suit onscreen.  I'd like a writer/director who presents a version of Robin's suit that's faithful to the iconography and a script that tackles these issues and provides solid reasons for why Robin's outfit looks the way it does, rather than completely change the costume into something else just 'cause he/she doesn't think the comic book suit would work.