what kind of film should the next one be? (TDKR spoilers)

[riddler]

The only issue I see with an 11 or 12 yr old Robin is basically child endangerment. It plays in the comics but bringing a kid into those kinds of dangerous situations... not that I don't like the tone and nature of comics, I do, but I haven't figured out a way to do a young Robin without making Batman look completely reckless and irresponsible.

Chris O' Donnell was 25 when he first played robin though. His character was supposed to be around 18 (Bruce makes allusions to him going to college in Forever and had Triumphant happened, he would have gone away) Burt Ward gets his drivers license during the Adam West series so presumably his Robin was supposed to be around 16. I agree not to have a 12 year old actor play him. Robin does ride a motor cycle around normally so if he's going to do that he should at least be legal driving age. But he needs to be below 18 for Bruce to take him in, one is generally not considered an orphan or helped by child services if they are legally an adult. Also I want someone who can actually ACT to play him. Not to say kids can't but it's a difficult transition from child to adult acting so it would be better not to have a repeat of the last two actors to play Dick Grayson where they never get a big role again after that. And perhaps the reason there's so much reluctance towards the character of Robin is that Ward and O' Donnell were both acting poorly and annoying near the end.

[greggbray]

The only issue I see with an 11 or 12 yr old Robin is basically child endangerment. It plays in the comics but bringing a kid into those kinds of dangerous situations... not that I don't like the tone and nature of comics, I do, but I haven't figured out a way to do a young Robin without making Batman look completely reckless and irresponsible.

I actually think this is a fair point.  One way to work around it is to introduce Dick Grayson as a 13 year old in the first film, but not really see him suit up as Robin.  Something along the lines of DV meets the Animated Series.  Either Robin's Reckoning (flashback scenes) or when they introduced Drake (I can't think of the title at the moment). 

Then have the next film take place a few years later with a Robin who is young, but not a child. 

[Silver Nemesis]

I'd rather have a live-action Batman TV show than another movie. But if it has to continue as a film series, I say start off with Batman already established and depict the narrative from the perspective of Dick Grayson.

The plot should:

•   establish a more fantasy-oriented version of Gotham (ideally like the one in the 1989 film)
•   introduce Robin as a compelling and believable character
•   incorporate lesser known characters from the comics who've yet to appear on film
•   keep Batman as the central lynchpin of events, even when he's not onscreen
•   include plenty of detective work to balance out the action
•   bring it closer to the feel and tone of the comics
•   make the audience believe that any villain – regardless of how fantastic they are – could appear at any second
•   restore the mystique of the Batman character

For Robin's origin story, I would suggest amalgamating elements from Dick Grayson's origin (Dark Victory is probably the best template), the Pre-Crisis Jason Todd's origin (specifically Killer Croc's involvement with the death of his parents), and the recent Night of the Owls story arc (the connection between Haly's Circus and the Court of Owls would make a good entry point for the supernatural elements of the Batman mythos). I'd also include flashbacks to the Victorian era where we'd get to see Alan Wayne, Mayor Theodore Cobblepot, Edward Elliot and the establishment of Haley's Circus as a recruiting ground for the Court of Owls. I'd have Detective Bullock as the cop investigating the Grayson murders, and Dr. Leslie Thompkins as the social worker monitoring Dick Grayson's progress at Wayne Manor. For a love interest, I'd use Silver St Cloud.

As far as casting goes – well, I've said this in other threads, but I'll say it again now – Jim Caviezel should be the next Batman. He's physically perfect for the part: 6'2, with black hair, blue eyes and chiselled jaw line – exactly like the Bruce Wayne in the comics. I was going to say he should bulk up a bit, but I saw a recent interview with him where he mentioned his weight was 210lbs, which is exactly the same weight as the Bruce Wayne in the comics. He fits the role 100%.

Add to this his athletic background – former college basketball player, trained extensively in martial arts when he was growing up, and recently trained with Special Forces units for his role on Person of Interest. He can also do a low menacing voice without sounding silly. And to top it all off, he's a damn good actor. I also like the fact he has distinctive parenthesis lines around his mouth like Keaton, which is how many artists draw Batman's lower face in the comics. He'd be in his mid forties by time filming commenced. But that wouldn't be a problem if they went with the Robin-origin angle.

And he should wear a costume similar to the one from the Arkham games. Armoured, but with the classic colour scheme from the comics. Kind of like this:

As far as the title goes, I'd call the movie Batman and Robin. It's simple, it's iconic and it would expunge the memory of the 1997 film.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter.

[GBglide]

Do you think a Batman live action tv show would work? It wouldn't have the budget of the movies.

[thecolorsblend]

The Jason Todd thing intrigues me. I was driving around last night and for some reason the thought occurred to me that you could combine both of Jason Todd's origins into a way that fits poignantly with Dick's. With Dick, Bruce was there on the scene and helped out right away. Jason could thus be a darker mirror of that. He and his parents? Also acrobats and also murdered. But unlike Dick, Bruce wasn't there to help. So Jason was put into foster care and later ran away from those homes and lived on the streets. This approach would show that he's basically what Dick could have been but for Bruce's intervention. It validates Jason's entire history as far as origins go.

From there, Jason could either become Robin or he could go directly to becoming a villain; I care not which.

[The Dark Knight]

The plot should:

•   establish a more fantasy-oriented version of Gotham (ideally like the one in the 1989 film)
•   introduce Robin as a compelling and believable character
•   incorporate lesser known characters from the comics who've yet to appear on film
•   keep Batman as the central lynchpin of events, even when he's not onscreen
•   include plenty of detective work to balance out the action
•   bring it closer to the feel and tone of the comics
•   make the audience believe that any villain – regardless of how fantastic they are – could appear at any second
•   restore the mystique of the Batman character

I'm down with all of this.

[Silver Nemesis]

Do you think a Batman live action tv show would work? It wouldn't have the budget of the movies.

The budget could be problematic. Especially if it was on a network like the CW. But I reckon it could be done, provided the right people were in control. And the episodic structure of a TV show would be perfect for adapting the numerous storylines from the comics. Villains that would never appear in a movie could have entire episodes devoted to them. And recurring characters could be steadily developed over multiple seasons. The Flash, Lois and Clark and Batman: TAS are the templates I'd use for a live-action Batman show.

The Jason Todd thing intrigues me. I was driving around last night and for some reason the thought occurred to me that you could combine both of Jason Todd's origins into a way that fits poignantly with Dick's. With Dick, Bruce was there on the scene and helped out right away. Jason could thus be a darker mirror of that. He and his parents? Also acrobats and also murdered. But unlike Dick, Bruce wasn't there to help. So Jason was put into foster care and later ran away from those homes and lived on the streets. This approach would show that he's basically what Dick could have been but for Bruce's intervention. It validates Jason's entire history as far as origins go.

From there, Jason could either become Robin or he could go directly to becoming a villain; I care not which.

That's precisely the kind of dynamic I'd like to see, colors. If they were to amalgamate Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, then even the diehard comic fans wouldn't know how he was going to turn out. He could become Nightwing, he could become Red Hood. It would add an extra layer of ambiguity and tension to his character arc.

If I was writing it, I'd have the plot revolve around the Court of Owls trying to get hold of Dick Grayson so they can train him as their new head Talon. When his parents refuse to hand him over, the Court commissions a local mob boss, Tony Zucco, to have them killed. Zucco hires another member of Haly's Circus, a freak show act named Waylon Zones, to actually do the deed. Bruce Wayne then takes the surviving Grayson child under his wing in an effort to protect him from the Court. At first Bruce doesn't want to take on a partner, but gradually he realises the best way to protect the child is to train him to defend himself.

I'd reimagine Haly's Circus as a Caligaristic Victorian carnival show harbouring dark and sinister secrets. I'd probably change the name from Haly's Circus to Haly's Carnival to lend it a little extra ambiguity.

I'd also have Victor Fries as an employee of Wayne Enterprises. It would be from him that Batman acquires the cryogenics weapons he needs to incapacitate the invincible Talons. Towards the end of the film, the Talons would retaliate by attacking Fries' lab, inadvertently prompting his transformation into Mr. Freeze. Then he could return as a villain in one of the sequels.

And one final thing – I'd have the movie take place at Halloween. I think Batman 89 and Batman Forever were both supposed to take place around that time of year. But I'd make the Halloween setting a much more prominent aspect of the story, thereby imbuing the film with the same spooky autumnal ambiance as movies like Sleepy Hollow (1999) and Trick r Treat (2007).

[thecolorsblend]

That's precisely the kind of dynamic I'd like to see, colors. If they were to amalgamate Dick Grayson and Jason Todd, then even the diehard comic fans wouldn't know how he was going to turn out. He could become Nightwing, he could become Red Hood. It would add an extra layer of ambiguity and tension to his character arc.

Good ideas but I think you're misinterpreting my concept. Dick's origin would be more or less as we know it. I'd simply use both origins for Jason. In the Pre-Crisis era, it was the acrobat thing. Post-Crisis, he was a street kid. So why not give Jason both of his origin stories? Set him up as an orphaned circus performer living on the streets. This would have no effect on Dick's traditional circus origin.

[Silver Nemesis]

Ah, I see what you mean. There's a lot to be said for that idea. They never really accounted for Jason's physical prowess in the Post-Crisis stories. He was just a street punk who was somehow amazing at fighting. But if he'd trained as a circus performer before taking to the streets, like his Pre-Crisis counterpart, then that would give his skills a bit more credibility.

I had an idea that Jason could actually be the first Robin. It would be a mystery what had happened to him. Only Batman and Alfred would know his true fate, while everyone else would assume he was dead. Bruce's reluctance to train Dick Grayson would be similar to Yoda's reluctance to train Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back; he's already seen one apprentice fall and he doesn't want it to happen again.

The Red Hood could show up in one of the sequels and Batman would insist on fighting him alone. Dick would then uncover the truth about his predecessor – that  Jason Todd is the Red Hood, the original Robin. It would also make the Joker more intimidating if he'd already "killed" one Robin before even appearing on screen.

[BatmAngelus]

Dick's origin would be more or less as we know it. I'd simply use both origins for Jason. In the Pre-Crisis era, it was the acrobat thing. Post-Crisis, he was a street kid. So why not give Jason both of his origin stories? Set him up as an orphaned circus performer living on the streets. This would have no effect on Dick's traditional circus origin.

My main issue with that, and it's an issue with Jason's Pre-Crisis origin as well, is that it seems almost too neat to have yet another orphaned acrobat.  I really like the parallel, though.

The plot should:

•   establish a more fantasy-oriented version of Gotham (ideally like the one in the 1989 film)
•   introduce Robin as a compelling and believable character
•   incorporate lesser known characters from the comics who've yet to appear on film
•   keep Batman as the central lynchpin of events, even when he's not onscreen
•   include plenty of detective work to balance out the action
•   bring it closer to the feel and tone of the comics
•   make the audience believe that any villain – regardless of how fantastic they are – could appear at any second
•   restore the mystique of the Batman character

Like Dark Knight, I'm on board with this as well.

If I was writing it, I'd have the plot revolve around the Court of Owls trying to get hold of Dick Grayson so they can train him as their new head Talon. When his parents refuse to hand him over, the Court commissions a local mob boss, Tony Zucco, to have them killed.

This really makes me want to read The Court of Owls story.  I've only heard vague points (and the whole Lincoln March twist), but it seems like the latest Batman story that people enjoyed.

Zucco hires another member of Haly's Circus, a freak show act named Waylon Zones, to actually do the deed.

I really think Killer Croc is a natural character to include with Haly's Circus and a Robin origin movie.  My ideas are quite different, though.  While I know Killer Croc killed the Todds in the Pre-Crisis origin of Jason Todd's Robin and it'd make sense to combine that into Grayson's origin, I actually would take a little more inspiration from the Elseworlds Batman: Nine Lives, in which Grayson knew Croc from the circus and they were friends. 

I'd have it so that Waylon Jones/Croc was part of the circus because it was the only place that accepted him.  He became friends with the Graysons.  He looked out for their son.  Then Zucco's gang killed the Graysons (like in the comics and Dark Victory).  Croc mourns his best friends and his sadness turns to anger.  He wants revenge for the attack on the people he considers to be family.  He's sick of the outside world preying on them for being "freaks" and decides it's time to protect the rest of his circus family and make sure this never happens again.  He gathers other members of the circus as muscle to retaliate against Zucco and his kind.  But of course, his good intentions get warped along the way and, well, let's just say Waylon Jones/Croc becomes Killer Croc.

I'm attached to this version for several reasons.  This would give Croc an arc that stays true to his character (in never feeling truly accepted anywhere) yet gives him more dimension than the usual interpretation (i.e. Hush, Arkham). 
It'd bring Croc back to his roots of being a Gotham crime boss, but with better motivation and a more organic way of giving him a criminal organization and people to lead. 
It'd continue the plot development of the "freaks" taking over Gotham from the regular mob bosses (that was only barely explored in the Nolan trilogy).
It'd provide an interesting thematic contrast to Dick Grayson's character journey in how they both react to the Graysons' deaths differently. 
And, of course, it'd give more of an emotional connection between Robin and Killer Croc when, inevitably, these two have to fight each other.  To Batman, this is a new, dangerous freak-like criminal named "Killer Croc."  But to Robin, he will always be "Mr. Jones."

Bruce Wayne then takes the surviving Grayson child under his wing in an effort to protect him from the Court. At first Bruce doesn't want to take on a partner, but gradually he realises the best way to protect the child is to train him to defend himself.

I love the idea of Bruce adopting Grayson at first as a means of protecting him.

I'd reimagine Haly's Circus as a Caligaristic Victorian carnival show harbouring dark and sinister secrets. I'd probably change the name from Haly's Circus to Haly's Carnival to lend it a little extra ambiguity.

As I expressed with the Croc idea, I'd love to explore Haly's more, mainly because this is where Dick grew up.  He didn't just have his parents.  I know the characters come up in Nightwing: Year One and I think Kyle Higgins brought them back in his Nightwing comics in the New 52.  Are there any other comics that explore Haly's?

I'd also have Victor Fries as an employee of Wayne Enterprises. It would be from him that Batman acquires the cryogenics weapons he needs to incapacitate the invincible Talons. Towards the end of the film, the Talons would retaliate by attacking Fries' lab, inadvertently prompting his transformation into Mr. Freeze. Then he could return as a villain in one of the sequels.

While I do miss the Nora Fries element in this scenario, I think it'd be kinda cool to set up a "Nolan-Freeman-Lucius Fox" type character, but then turn him into a villain for the franchise.