what kind of film should the next one be? (TDKR spoilers)

[thecolorsblend]

This slightly deviates from the main discussion.. I think the only problem is that when Team Burton did it (e.g. the Penguin) certain fans were up in arms and condemned BR as an "in name only" Batman movie, while when Team Nolan did it too, the same fans hailed it as genius. Same with a few casting choices (5'10" Keaton is "too short" for Batman, while the equally "short" 5'10" Tom Hardy is fine as Bane... etc, etc) and a few other things. Double standards.

This.

[Bobthegoon89]

If you're going to reinvent the character in the end anyway, why not simply create a brand new villain? Had Crane been replaced by an original character, I'd probably be willing to cut the Nolan movies a bit more slack in terms of the liberties they took not just with him but also with other characters.

This slightly deviates from the main discussion.. I think the only problem is that when Team Burton did it (e.g. the Penguin) certain fans were up in arms and condemned BR as an "in name only" Batman movie, while when Team Nolan did it too, the same fans hailed it as genius. Same with a few casting choices (5'10" Keaton is "too short" for Batman, while the equally "short" 5'10" Tom Hardy is fine as Bane... etc, etc) and a few other things. Double standards.

I was about to start a new thread regarding the ridiculous criticisms of The Penguin in Batman Returns. All I can say here is well said!

[thecolorsblend]

Gets better. Burton adapted the Golden Age Batman and is mercilessly harassed about it to this day.

Nolan (supposedly) adapted the Golden Age Joker and is hailed as a genius.

[ElCuervoMuerto]

^I would say Nolan's Joker had more of a Killing Joke influence, but that's probably beside the point.

[Azrael]

Gets better. Burton adapted the Golden Age Batman and is mercilessly harassed about it to this day.

Nolan (supposedly) adapted the Golden Age Joker and is hailed as a genius.

Burton gave the Penguin a deformity, a "tragic" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "No respect for the source material".

Nolan gave Bane a deformity, a "woobie" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "Reinventing the character"

[The Dark Knight]

And the age old argument you see which gives it all a free pass:

"Bane isn't that good in the comics anyway. Let Nolan do what he wants, he'll make him better than what's come before anyway." 

[thecolorsblend]

^I would say Nolan's Joker had more of a Killing Joke influence, but that's probably beside the point.

I've seen quotations aplenty calling back to Batman #1 as the starting point for Nolan's Joker. Between his mob associations, the public announcements of his crimes, killing some people, getting caught and then escaping that same night, I feel like I can draw a much straighter line to Batman #1. Sure, aspects of his agenda tie in to TKJ (all it takes is one bad day/when the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other) but I'd argue at least 90% of what he does in TDK comes from the Golden Age. Or, as was my original point, Burton gets crucified for adapting the Golden Age Batman while Nolan gets a free pass on adapting the Golden Age Joker.

Burton gave the Penguin a deformity, a "tragic" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "No respect for the source material".

Nolan gave Bane a deformity, a "woobie" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "Reinventing the character"

Exactly that. The key difference though is that both Penguins have an affection for high society and the finer things. All Burton did was give an explanation for that and throw in some physical deformities. And I'm not really aware of Penguin's pre-Burton origin (or if he even had one). I'd be willing to cut Burton some slack in this case. But the Joker's origin had been established for decades before Nolan showed up.

And the age old argument you see which gives it all a free pass:

"Bane isn't that good in the comics anyway. Let Nolan do what he wants, he'll make him better than what's come before anyway." 

Yeah, I've heard that one a few times too. I just love being preached at about what the comics are really all about by someone who's read a whoppin' six trades, don't you?

[Bobthegoon89]

^I would say Nolan's Joker had more of a Killing Joke influence, but that's probably beside the point.

I've seen quotations aplenty calling back to Batman #1 as the starting point for Nolan's Joker. Between his mob associations, the public announcements of his crimes, killing some people, getting caught and then escaping that same night, I feel like I can draw a much straighter line to Batman #1. Sure, aspects of his agenda tie in to TKJ (all it takes is one bad day/when the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other) but I'd argue at least 90% of what he does in TDK comes from the Golden Age. Or, as was my original point, Burton gets crucified for adapting the Golden Age Batman while Nolan gets a free pass on adapting the Golden Age Joker.

Burton gave the Penguin a deformity, a "tragic" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "No respect for the source material".

Nolan gave Bane a deformity, a "woobie" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "Reinventing the character"

Exactly that. The key difference though is that both Penguins have an affection for high society and the finer things. All Burton did was give an explanation for that and throw in some physical deformities. And I'm not really aware of Penguin's pre-Burton origin (or if he even had one). I'd be willing to cut Burton some slack in this case. But the Joker's origin had been established for decades before Nolan showed up.

And the age old argument you see which gives it all a free pass:

"Bane isn't that good in the comics anyway. Let Nolan do what he wants, he'll make him better than what's come before anyway." 

Yeah, I've heard that one a few times too. I just love being preached at about what the comics are really all about by someone who's read a whoppin' six trades, don't you?

I wrote about The Penguin's comic origins just recently on the Batman Returns section.

In a version I read his father dies of pneumonia after catching it from rain and his mother therefore forces him to always carry an umbrella no matter the weather (hence his trademark weapon). He has an affinity for birdlife (I think his parents ran a pet store). He's bullied at school and humiliated being called, er, "The Penguin" due to his stumpy look and beaky nose. In one version he asks a girl out to a high school dance and wears a sort of tuxedo that doesn't fit him, triggering his nickname. Oh and a bunch of bullies ransack his parent's pet store at one point giving him his twisted hatred.

Just a condensed version but yeah real "heresy" Burton had no desire to bring this "epic" story to the big screen. His version was so much more interesting and sad and should have been adopted by DC Comics in the way they brought in Harley Quinn or Montoya. Especially the idea of a darker version of the Wayne family with his wealthy (but sickminded) parents. I just wish Burton had explained his use for umbrella's which sorta got lost. Guess he may have used them in acts in his circus days?

[Travesty]

I've seen quotations aplenty calling back to Batman #1 as the starting point for Nolan's Joker. Between his mob associations, the public announcements of his crimes, killing some people, getting caught and then escaping that same night, I feel like I can draw a much straighter line to Batman #1. Sure, aspects of his agenda tie in to TKJ (all it takes is one bad day/when the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other) but I'd argue at least 90% of what he does in TDK comes from the Golden Age. Or, as was my original point, Burton gets crucified for adapting the Golden Age Batman while Nolan gets a free pass on adapting the Golden Age Joker.

I've made this argument so many times on SHH, and I would just get blasted for it every time.

[Vampfox]

Burton gave the Penguin a deformity, a "tragic" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "No respect for the source material".

Nolan gave Bane a deformity, a "woobie" side and an origin/background that deviates from the comics. "Reinventing the character"

Truth be told comic book fans don't know what they want. But it always seems funny to me that they can accept certain changes to the source material but not other changes.