Hathaway's Selina Kyle/Catwoman (SPOILERS)

[The Dark Knight]

I really enjoy the first hour or so of the movie before Batman returns. Something about the archetype of the hero who has been beaten down by life or circumstance plays for me. I guess it goes back to Ben Kenobi in Star Wars '77. "I was once a Jedi Knight". It's always welcome in my book.

I know what you mean. I like the momentum the film builds in that section.

I like to think Bruce became Ras Al Ghul in a way during his hobo phase, even if the film doesn't make a point of it. Visually he looked like Ras, and I guess you could make this quote connection to Rachel:

"But I know the rage that drives you. That impossible anger strangling the grief, until the memory of your loved one is just... poison in your veins. And one day, you catch yourself wishing the person you loved had never existed, so you would be spared your pain."

Instead of rage, Bruce simply gave in to his grief, coupled with the Dent Act miraculously cleaning up all crime which made his presence irrelevant anyway.  My issue is how Batman is retired, comes back, is imprisoned, comes back and then retires again throughout the film. I would've omitted Blake completely and focused his screentime either on Bruce or Selina. Once Bruce is imprisoned the film drags IMO, and never really recovers. The first half is the best half.

[thecolorsblend]

I disagree. I thought that chase scene was sh*thouse, and easily the worst out of all the chase sequences in the series. Batman's first return, and it's an unexciting, impotent display which he achieves nothing but letting Bane escape and divert all the cops attention. The chase scene with the bomb in the end was much better.

It's not my business to play the role of Nolan apologist. But wasn't that the point? When Batman returns an hour into the movie... well, he wasn't really returning. It was Bruce wearing Batman's suit. Not actually Batman.

His return is heralded by an empty, impotent shower of sparks when he blasts Bane's motorcycle with that EMP gun to no effect. He didn't save the day and the bad guy escaped.

Batman's actual return occurs later in the movie and is punctuated by a vast nuclear explosion of great effect, signifying the end of Bane's reign of terror. He saved the day and the League of Shadows is permanently vanquished.

[The Dark Knight]

Very true. Batman's only heroic deed in the entire film is carrying the bomb out to the ocean. Everything else he fails at.

I do like the concept of that batpod chase for the reasons I described though.

[The Laughing Fish]

It's not my business to play the role of Nolan apologist. But wasn't that the point?

Try telling that to the fanboys, I don't think they'd take this kindly to heart if you argue any form of incompetence played a part for his character.

When Batman returns an hour into the movie... well, he wasn't really returning. It was Bruce wearing Batman's suit. Not actually Batman.

I'd argue that Batman never appeared in the Nolan films to begin with, and was instead replaced with an incompetent James Bond knockoff who didn't know what the hell he was doing, thanks to awful writing.

It's funny that you brought up a point to defend the character about not being Batman during a significant portion of TDKR. That detail more than evokes Batman's arc in BvS as he was psychologically a shadow of his former self, until he finally came to his senses and became a hero again by rescuing Martha Kent and helped stop Doomsday. But, if you dare bring that up, hypocrites will complain Batman should never have been in that situation and manipulated by Lex, while ignoring that Nolan's version only had himself to blame for being manipulated by everybody in his wake and brought the whole mess upon himself.

If I have to choose a deconstructed take on Batman, I'd take BvS any day of the week.

[Dagenspear]

You just don't understand the complexity and genius by Christopher Nolan. In Nolan we trust!

I'll say it again, it's absolutely laughable that Snyder gets condemned for a lot of things that Nolan gets a pass for. Bane and Joker's motives are even more nonsensical and contrived than Lex Luthor's plans in BvS. Nolan must have seriously good connections in the entertainment industry to get away with this sh*t, because anybody else would've been condemned for it. Hé's what the MCU is becoming nowadays, sacrosanct.

Christopher Nolan isn't the only person apart of this movie. Jonathan is too. Bane and Joker's motives are actually pretty simple though. Bane wants revenge against Bruce for betraying the LOA and wants to destroy Gotham. His plan is convoluted though, overly so. Joker wants to prove that people are inherently bad. Joker has other things he wants, but that's his structured motive overall. Lex's motive is that he hates Superman because he blames God for not protecting him from his dad's abuse. It's nonsense. He's insane, yes, but that's an excuse to have his motive be nonsense. It would make far more sense if his motive was Batman's in the movie. Instead of making Batman a villain and then not holding him responsible for that. It's especially glaring coming off of the layered and multifaceted character of Lex from Smallville, built with the obsessive curiosity, savior complex, power hunger, jealousy and feelings of betrayal. Joker and Bane's plans don't depend on them knowing something he couldn't possibly know though.

TDK Rises has a couple of good scenes, don't get me wrong. But the whole doesn't make sense.

Take the opening plane hijacking for example. Bane went to a lot of trouble for nothing. Think about it.

Bane did it to find out if Pavel told them anything and fake his death.

Then there's the stock market sequence:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/banes-plan-to-bankrupt-batman-doesnt-make-any-sense/260191/

The plot relies on a lot of coincidences. It relies on Bruce befriending Miranda and telling her about the reactor....and then giving her access. If he said NOTHING, like I think comic Bruce would, Bane's plan is over. I'm positive Bane/Daggett wouldn't have known about this area otherwise. And Bane's milita takeover of Gotham plot? That would be over as well, because Miranda wouldn't know about the stash of Tumblers hidden above the sewers.

They got the tumblers because Bane found them by building his way into Wayne Enterprises via the basement. Miranda befriended Bruce as he was starting up his clean energy project and pursued him persistently about it. Giving her access is dependent on the stock plan giving Dagget an opportunity to take over, so Bruce would more easily hand it over to Miranda. These aren't coincidences. They're the plan. Fox says himself that they may be able to prove fraud, but not immediately.

Bane's big plot about telling the truth about Harvey eventuated because of pure luck. Gordon just happened to be captured by Bane's men, and Gordon just so happened to have a confession letter in his pocket. Which Bane later reads out, and without solid proof, everyone believes it.

The criminals believe it. We don't see how the people react, except for Blake, who questions Gordon about it, who immediately admits it. The Gordon letter actually has nothing to do with Bane's overall plan. He just stumbles onto it as he's in the process of his plan.

Batman and Catwoman have a rocky relationship at times in the comics, but really, what did Selina do to show Bruce she was worth chasing romantically? She steals his necklace, steals his car and then sells him out to Bane to get bashed to near death.

She saved his life from Bane at the risk of her own life instead of running away to save herself.

Bruce is a fool and he got played. Selina's reward for this is to get her criminal record cleared. Who wouldn't retire with this guy? He's a jackass who pays for everything and ignores all your bad deeds. She's laughing.

And he's got a pretty girlfirend. I think he's cool with it. I've seen other versions do worse.

I like to think Bruce became Ras Al Ghul in a way during his hobo phase, even if the film doesn't make a point of it. Visually he looked like Ras, and I guess you could make this quote connection to Rachel:

"But I know the rage that drives you. That impossible anger strangling the grief, until the memory of your loved one is just... poison in your veins. And one day, you catch yourself wishing the person you loved had never existed, so you would be spared your pain."

Instead of rage, Bruce simply gave in to his grief, coupled with the Dent Act miraculously cleaning up all crime which made his presence irrelevant anyway.  My issue is how Batman is retired, comes back, is imprisoned, comes back and then retires again throughout the film. I would've omitted Blake completely and focused his screentime either on Bruce or Selina. Once Bruce is imprisoned the film drags IMO, and never really recovers. The first half is the best half.

Interesting thought that had never occurred to me. Good job!

It's not my business to play the role of Nolan apologist. But wasn't that the point? When Batman returns an hour into the movie... well, he wasn't really returning. It was Bruce wearing Batman's suit. Not actually Batman.

His return is heralded by an empty, impotent shower of sparks when he blasts Bane's motorcycle with that EMP gun to no effect. He didn't save the day and the bad guy escaped.

Batman's actual return occurs later in the movie and is punctuated by a vast nuclear explosion of great effect, signifying the end of Bane's reign of terror. He saved the day and the League of Shadows is permanently vanquished.

As I understand it, yes.

Very true. Batman's only heroic deed in the entire film is carrying the bomb out to the ocean. Everything else he fails at.

Exactly. And that's the point. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[Dagenspear]

How long has it been since some of you have seen the movie? Because earlier one of you said that Talia sleeping with Bruce was the reason he gave her WE, when that happened after he gave WE to her. And now someone seemed to think that Bane and Talia were apart of 2 separate plans that just happen to converge in on eachother, when they were working together the  whole time.

[The Dark Knight]

Interesting thought that had never occurred to me. Good job!

Yep. I think it fits.

Exactly. And that's the point.

I think I like it, actually. Batman being out of action for years on end wouldn't equal a powerful athlete. It's like he's imitating what he thinks Batman should be, but never really recapturing that same standard. Sure, his career wasn't that long, but as the years passed Batman become a myth seperate from himself. The exoskeleton on his legs helped, but you can't turn around years of inactivity. Batman had just enough power left to save the day, but that was it. When you consider all the setbacks and failures he experiences in the film, it's easily the most hardships a cinematic Batman has faced.

A lonely shut-in for almost a decade.
His body badly deteriorated.
Has his mother's necklace stolen.
Has his car stolen.
Fails to stop Bane on the bike and stop the transaction.
Is completely bankrupted.
Is thrashed by Bane in combat.
Is betrayed by Miranda.
His clean energy project is used against him.
Is thrown into a foreign jail for a lengthy period of time.
Is almost killed by Talia and Bane before rescued by Catwoman.
Is thought dead by the world.

That's called going through the ringer.

How long has it been since some of you have seen the movie?

Probably about a year or more. I may give it another viewing sooner rather than later.

TDK Rises isn't a film without issues, but that doesn't mean it's devoid of value.

[Catwoman]

Finally decided to give in and watch this, the girlfriend has the DVD and was like "You NEED to watch it." So, I did. The minute I saw Hathaway I said "Don't get attached, don't get attached, DON'T get attached." The minute she kicked Bruce's cane out from under him and backflipped out the window, I said "Aw f***, I'm attached." When that guy asked if her heels make it hard to walk and she goes "I don't know," spears him with one, and asks with mock curiosity "Do they?" I said "Aw f***, I'm in love."

And I am. Despite convincing myself I would hate her version to no end, I wound up adoring it. Michelle's will always reign as number 1, that goes a lot deeper than just a character in a comic book movie for me, but I found plenty of room in my heart for Anne's version to fit in nice and cozy. That seems to be a good metaphor for how I wound up feeling about the movie in general. The whole "Us vs Them" Burtonite and Nolanite thing that made me avoid it in the first place is kind of dead for me now. It's all Batman, just different styles of him. I think I'll be giving Begins and TDK another look soon, perhaps a marathon run of all three this weekend, and let myself enjoy and even love them as good alternate versions of Batman, not without flaws but more good than they are bad.

So.....yeah...

[riddler]

Finally decided to give in and watch this, the girlfriend has the DVD and was like "You NEED to watch it." So, I did. The minute I saw Hathaway I said "Don't get attached, don't get attached, DON'T get attached." The minute she kicked Bruce's cane out from under him and backflipped out the window, I said "Aw f***, I'm attached." When that guy asked if her heels make it hard to walk and she goes "I don't know," spears him with one, and asks with mock curiosity "Do they?" I said "Aw f***, I'm in love."

And I am. Despite convincing myself I would hate her version to no end, I wound up adoring it. Michelle's will always reign as number 1, that goes a lot deeper than just a character in a comic book movie for me, but I found plenty of room in my heart for Anne's version to fit in nice and cozy. That seems to be a good metaphor for how I wound up feeling about the movie in general. The whole "Us vs Them" Burtonite and Nolanite thing that made me avoid it in the first place is kind of dead for me now. It's all Batman, just different styles of him. I think I'll be giving Begins and TDK another look soon, perhaps a marathon run of all three this weekend, and let myself enjoy and even love them as good alternate versions of Batman, not without flaws but more good than they are bad.

So.....yeah...

Since the IMDB boards shut down (essentially ridding the Nolan fans from my life), the only Bat film I've seen is the Adam West one. Hopefully that along with the fact that we have a new Batman can quell the Nolan vs. Burton debates and let us all enjoy the films we like without feeling the need to justify why we enjoy them.

I think the best way to look at Hathaway's character is as a pre-Catwoman cat burglar. Hathaway makes for a very convincing thief and to be honest she may have been a better pre-transformation Selina Kyle. Not that Michelle wasn't great before getting pushed out the window but that shy, nerdish, secretary type is a departure from the character's roots (although it did make her an excellent match for Bruce).

If you're going to look at both characters as Catwoman though, Michelle claws the mouth off Hathaway. Hathaway doesn't have the look or the persona of Catwoman when she 'suits up'. Catwoman is a character like Batman who has duality and I didn't feel like Hathaway was playing two different versions of the character the way Michelle did. I don't even think the word 'cat' is mentioned once throughout TDKR. She also wasn't overly meaningful in the film, you could remove her entirely without losing much of the plot, in fact part of me wonders if the only reason Nolan put her in the film was to be able to kill Bane and Talia without having Batman do it.




So to sum up how I feel; Hathaway was a better pre-Catwoman Selina Kyle, Pfeiffer remains the only live action Catwoman since the 60's in my book and if anyone maintains Hathaway WAS playing Catwoman then I'll counter that Pfeiffer's Catwoman would eat her before a cat nap.

[Catwoman]

For me I look at them as alternate dimension versions of a character, lol. As in they exist in two different worlds. So I don't bother comparing and contrasting. If I did though Anne's is way out of her league.