Arrow (2012 TV Series)

[The Laughing Fish]

Fantastic post, BA! Love all those ideas.

Wildcat could've still trained her, but I would've had a much older actor play him as a father figure to her, which could be poignant if she's still mourning her own dad at this point. Keep the fact that he used to be a vigilante, but in his younger days, maybe back when Oliver and Laurel were still kids. Maybe he was even a friend of Laurel's mom, Dinah (JSA reference) and that's how Laurel reconnects with him.

I wouldn't be surprised that the showrunners went with a younger actor to play Ted Grant because they had plans to get him involved romantically with Laurel. My only guess why that didn't happen is because they figured out that they didn't have enough room to cram that sub-plot when the Oliver-Felicity and Thea-blonde DJ pairings already took up too much screen time.

I wouldn't say Arrow was that great when it came to romance, but I thought Oliver's past romantic relationships made sense e.g. Helena as Oliver's potential protege as he tries to save her from her desire for vengeance, as well as Sara and Oliver being fighters and survivors, lest not forget former lovers of course. But the pairing with him and Felicity is forced. I've read most people's comments online suggesting that Oliver and Felicity were put together because the producers wanted to satisfy fan-fiction writers on Tumblr, otherwise known as "shippers". If that's the case, the producers are bloody idiots! I think this is a case where the CW is rearing its ugly head here, since every show on that network needs to do something to cater for that teenage audience.

By the way, I didn't even realize that "shippers" meant fans who went certain fictional characters to be together. I actually thought the term was made up to describe people who work at shipping docks! 

Sara then could've returned to Starling City with Nyssa to take down Malcolm Merlyn (now that the League knows he's alive), but finds herself disagreeing with the League of Assassins' ways. She was kind of already on this path in Season 2, so this would've fit. Wanting a life away from being an assassin (and with her sister already wearing her Black Canary outfit), Sara would go off on her own at the end of the season to develop her new persona and then show up in Legends of Tomorrow as the White Canary (the white symbolizing her fresh start from the blood she's shed in the past).

I would've been okay if Sara became the "heiress" to Ra's al Ghul, and became a brainwashed assassin who lost her conscience until the end of the season. I don't see why not: Ra's al Ghul wanted somebody with strong character to continue the League of Assassins, and Sara had that willpower. Granted, he wanted somebody to replace him...for reasons I'm not sure why.

I wouldn't mind so much that Arrow used a popular Batman villain for its show, but after a slightly promising start, this Ra's al Ghul became a dud. Honestly, I was never impressed with Liam Neeson, and Matt Nable ultimately didn't do anything for me either. I just don't think Hollywood can do this villain right. But I'll concede this about Neeson: if I can ignore that stupid and pointless decoy plot twist for a moment, his motives for destroying Gotham made some sense. Then again, he was the only villain in that trilogy who made any sense at all, in my opinion.

Instead of it revolving around being caught between two men, she could've been the one (instead of Ray) trying to pick up the pieces of Queen Consolidated (maybe with Walter Steel's help. Remember that guy?)

Funny you mentioned him. One of the few things that bothered me about the season season was that he quickly forgave Moira Queen despite their falling out at the end of Season 1, and even suggested her to run a election campaign to become mayor. And since Moira's death, we've never seen him again.

Lastly, the Hong Kong flashbacks this season felt tedious and Maseo wasn't nearly as interesting of a mentor as Slade was.

I'll go one better by suggesting that the flashbacks have already taken their course. There's only so much story you can  tell when one is shipwrecked on an island for five years, and I think the Hong Kong storyline is proof that the producers have run out of ideas. I'd rather they just stop the flashback storylines from now on. If there is a story they need to tell from the past, they can always show it in one self-contained episode, and not drag it for a whole season.

I'm not going to lie, I'm very bummed out by this season to the point that unless the Flash can travel back in time and change the outcome of the show, I don't see myself watching season four. And let's face it, Flash affecting time/another dimension is the only reason why Oliver suiting up again could make any sense, especially if we see him in that LoT trailer. Otherwise, I have no desire watching Oliver Queen having relationship troubles with the now incredibly annoying Felicity Smoak (who has suddenly gone from a fan favourite to somebody that lots of people I see online wishing to be killed off from the show).

[BatmAngelus]

I wouldn't be surprised that the showrunners went with a younger actor to play Ted Grant because they had plans to get him involved romantically with Laurel.

I believe this was actually the plan 

Wildcat himself was disappointing. He's meant to be one of the greatest fighters in the DC-verse...and his big moment in costume was when he got his ass kicked by Brick.

I wouldn't mind so much that Arrow used a popular Batman villain for its show, but after a slightly promising start, this Ra's al Ghul became a dud. Honestly, I was never impressed with Liam Neeson, and Matt Nable ultimately didn't do anything for me either. I just don't think Hollywood can do this villain right. But I'll concede this about Neeson: if I can ignore that stupid and pointless decoy plot twist for a moment, his motives for destroying Gotham made some sense. Then again, he was the only villain in that trilogy who made any sense at all, in my opinion.

And to be fair, this Ra's was much more faithful to the comics than the Nolan version:
- the League of Assassins kept their namesake this time
- he has a daughter working with him, armed her own fighting skills, who veers between being loyal to him vs. turning against him (let's face it- the show's Nyssa is basically a lesbian version of Talia, as opposed to an actual adaptation of the Nyssa character. Still, she's a better Talia than the Miranda Tate one.)
- He has the Lazarus Pit and has been around for hundreds of years
- He wears the Ra's Al Ghul green ceremonial robes
- And storywise, we got the shirtless sword fight as well as Ra's insisting on the hero becoming his heir and marrying his daughter.

And yet, none of these elements made up for the fact that he made for the weakest season-long villain, compared to Season 1's Merlyn and Season 2's Slade.

His League of Assassins do nothing important. At least the League of Shadows in the Nolan trilogy had an M.O. If this League did the same thing- destroying cities to destroy corruption- and Oliver actually saw evidence of the League being an effective tool against stopping criminals, then they could've actually brought out some real drama out of him being tempted to join the League and his feelings that he hasn't done anything effective himself, in comparison.

Ra's gets introduced at the end of episode 4 but does nothing until "The Climb" episode. That man should've gone to Starling City in the very next episode...

He supposedly wants Merlyn dead because destroying Starling City went against his code of honor, yet he wants Oliver to destroy Starling City at the end of the season. Hypocritical much?

He fails to kill anyone important, which makes his threats seem weak- Oliver and Thea both got resurrected. Maseo and Nyssa both betray him, but he spares their lives for what feels like plot convenience. All he kills are his own men during his practice fights as well as the criminals when he was dressed up as Arrow.

He's somehow convinced that Oliver should be his new heir after barely getting to know him and even defeating him in their first battle, all because of some prophecy about "whoever survives the blade of Ra's al Ghul." (at least in the Batman comics, Batman was an established hero and had saved Talia's life before, so Ra's had some basis for picking him).

And he gets so easily duped by Oliver that by the time the finale rolls around, he seems like a chump.

This all could've been prevented...if Ra's and Nyssa had just killed Merlyn.

It's also disappointing that in both adaptations, the Ra's Al Ghul character (at least the one we meet) is not the actual founder of the League and is someone who took over the leadership role from someone else.

[The Laughing Fish]

It's also disappointing that in both adaptations, the Ra's Al Ghul character (at least the one we meet) is not the actual founder of the League and is someone who took over the leadership role from someone else.

When Merlyn became the new Ra's al Ghul at the end of the finale, I actually believed that was what happened in BB; after Ken Watanabe's Ra's got killed by Bruce in the temple, Henri Ducard inherited the title. Instead, we get a plot twist for the sake of having one, without any purpose whatsoever. That's how I describe this season's Arrow, come to think of it.

I somewhat disagree with you a little bit that the League were completely harmless. Their framing of Arrow completely derailed Oliver's crusade. But I absolutely agree with you that their motivations throughout the season have been extremely flimsy, like in The Dark Knight Rises. All in all, they really looked second rate compared to Slade's Mirakuru army in Season 2. And just like in BB, I found the League to be beaten rather easily in a rushed and anticlimactic manner.

By the way, have you heard that Stephen Amell claiming that he has finished wearing the Arrow suit for the final time? It's not quite true since we see him in costume during that LoT trailer, but he was asked by a reporter if Oliver will be called "Green Arrow" next season, and Amell replied "We'll see".

Off-topic: I found a video of the chick who plays Nyssa performing stand-up comedy. NSFW though because it contains swearing. She's not quite original, but I love how cocky she acts while touching upon the subject of racism.

[BatmAngelus]

I somewhat disagree with you a little bit that the League were completely harmless. Their framing of Arrow completely derailed Oliver's crusade. But I absolutely agree with you that their motivations throughout the season have been extremely flimsy, like in The Dark Knight Rises. All in all, they really looked second rate compared to Slade's Mirakuru army in Season 2. And just like in BB, I found the League to be beaten rather easily in a rushed and anticlimactic manner.

I see what you mean. My sentiment is mainly on the question: what exactly does the League of Assassins do on a regular basis in the Arrow world? Nearly everything they've done in the show is some kind of clean-up, either revolved around targeting one of their own (Sara, Merlyn, Nyssa, etc.) or getting Oliver to take over as the leader.

There was very little coverage of what Ra's was actually leading them to do on a regular basis (do they take out corrupt world leaders? Liberate villages from tyrants?) and whether that was something that could relate to Oliver's goals in fighting crime (in order for his offer to him to hold any weight).

The biggest contradiction was saying that Merlyn's attack on the Glades was against their code, but then they wanted Oliver to spread the megavirus through all of Starling City. So it's only okay to destroy a city when it is the old home of the upcoming successor?

I think maybe Ra's would've fit better in this world if they adapted Tower of Babel in a future season instead, either Season 4 or Legends of Tomorrow Season 2.

With the growing number of metahumans and superheroes in the show (not to mention how easily Flash got possessed by Rainbow Raider in the Flash vs. Arrow episode), I could see Oliver coming up with contingency plans against Flash and the Legends of Tomorrow superheroes (i.e. Hawkgirl, Firestorm, The Atom) in case they go bad.

Ra's could've then tried to use those plans to eliminate the superheroes, either to make way for his own scheme (giving him something to do other than spend a season trying to turn a guy he barely knows into his heir) or because he finds them too dangerous and threatening to the world as well (which makes him a dark parallel to Oliver). This also would've been a way better use of Brother Eye than the adaptation in the Felicity episode, if they combined this with the OMAC storyline. And again, this would've made more sense with the world they created, given Ra's an actual M.O., and avoided another "destroy the city" plot.

[The Laughing Fish]

With the growing number of metahumans and superheroes in the show (not to mention how easily Flash got possessed by Rainbow Raider in the Flash vs. Arrow episode), I could see Oliver coming up with contingency plans against Flash and the Legends of Tomorrow superheroes (i.e. Hawkgirl, Firestorm, The Atom) in case they go bad.

Nice idea, but the problem is that the show is accused of copying Batman already enough as it is, and it would only encourage more complaints. Speaking of comparisons with Batman, I've found this fan blog online where somebody reasons why this incarnation of Green Arrow and Atom aren't ripoffs of Batman and Iron Man. I don't quite agree with everything he says, but I do like this passage:

Overall - Granted, Arrow does a few plot cues from Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy, the degree to which some people use this name is flaws in glaring ways. The first and foremost (sorry Nolan fans) begin Nolan's Batman wasn't Batman, in any form, Arrow's GA (Green Arrow) is a less popular version of the character...but still a version none the less. Oliver may not be whipping one liners out here and there, but other than that, his arrogance, and ability to manipulate any self-absorbed situation and make it seem like he is "doing it for a cause" are pretty spot on to the character. On the other hand there is Baleman, who didn't embody a single of the three key (broad scale) Batman characteristics: Heroism of Zorro (regardless of being a vigilante, his BatSignal more then anything represents that the city can be safe under his guard, the guard of a hero), Stealth and Speed of Dracula (again, minus a few scenes in Batman Begins we rarely saw Batman navigate the shadows and for that matter...nor does Oliver on the CW), and lastly Intellect of Sherlock Holmes (Baleman is indisputably the stupidest version of Batman, minus Batzarro, to ever grace any screen or comic book. Unlike Oliver, who uses outside sources on both the CW [see Season 2.5] and the comics [Q-Core] to build gear and complete his mission as Arrow, Batman has always relied on his own smarts to be able to defeat most villains. This is a trait that, with except to the bullet tracking scene in The Dark Knight was completely and utterly ignored.

Getting past that, the "Nolan Trilogy" further embodies just how oversaturated, and over-credited Batman has become, people draw parallels between Bruce Wayne's exile in The Dark Knight Rises and Oliver's exile after the Season 3's mid-season finale and claim that he is just "ripping off Batman"....TIME OUT... The Dark Knight Rises was just a poor adaptation of the famous Batman storyline Knightfall, in which Batman has his back broken, and choses a replacement, and goes to rehabilitate himself, The Dark Knight Rises, used a theme that has been used time and time again in works ranging all the way from Shakespeare's Hamlet to Disney's The Lion King to Marvel's Iron Man, so Arrow much like The Dark Knight Rises, The Lion King, Iron Man, and countless other films and tv shows have always and will always be taking queues from age old material.

Source: http://www.thearrowverse.com/far-from-batman-and-iron-man-lite.html (beware if you want to read the entire blog though - it's fairly long).

[BatmAngelus]

Nice idea, but the problem is that the show is accused of copying Batman already enough as it is, and it would only encourage more complaints.

Fair enough, I was coming more from the perspective of- if you're going to take a Batman story with Ra's, take this one instead .

I think everyone noticed the similarities between Arrow and Batman/the Dark Knight Trilogy since before the show even aired, but I get the impression that it wasn't a big problem for viewers until this season. People noticed it in earlier seasons but weren't really bothered by it very much.

For example, I didn't mind stuff like the copycats in the beginning of Season 2 because they fit that world of the story and played a role in him wanting to change his tactics and his name. I thought they did it a lot better than TDK.

But this season, it felt like they were just injecting Batman in 'cause they were out of ideas, rather than what actually made sense for the characters.

In the comics, Ra's considers Batman a worthy potential heir, based off of how he saved his daughter, and has him undergo a test to prove his worth, which he passes in Daughter of the Demon. Plus, he knows that Talia is in love with Bruce. So having him offer the throne to Batman, as well as his daughter's hand in marriage, makes sense.

But here, Ra's considered Oliver to be "just a boy"- whom he easily defeats in combat. His only motivation behind offering the throne to him seems to be the hacky "He who survives the blade" prophecy BS.

He also set up Oliver and Nyssa right after Nyssa had betrayed him and he was about to kill her. It made no sense for him to suddenly decide to keep her alive or even pair the two of them up.

[The Laughing Fish]

RE: the Arrow-Batman comparisons: we should remember that Green Arrow did historically rip off Batman until he was re-imagined over time. Some people argue that Arrow and Quentin Lance's working relationship rips off Batman and Gordon, but Green Arrow was seen sharing info with a Seattle police lieutenant in The Longbow Hunters, albeit on less than amicable terms. In fact, Green Arrow in that story used brutal intimidation that even Batman would consider crossing the line e.g. shooting arrows to impale a scumbag right in the ear.

I for one was never bothered about Arrow taking cues from the Nolan films, because like you said, it improved existing ideas that the films never explored too deeply i.e. the copycats in TDK. But now the writers took a massive step backwards. Some people argue that the writing team had too much on their plate with working Arrow and The Flash, as well developing LoT and Supergirl at the same time. And maybe some of that is true. But it still doesn't fully explain their lack of judgment for the storytelling choices they made this season.

Anyway, getting back to the Nolan comparions. You can compare Merlyn's Undertaking to Ra's al Ghul's water supply massacre attempt in BB, but I was way more captivated in Merlyn's agenda because his wife's murder in the Glades made it very personal. After years of unsuccessful attempts to donate his time and money to improve the town (and who knows, maybe a little bit of class elitism had an influence here), Merlyn returned home following his training with the League feeling convinced the people living in the Glades needed to die with it for any chance of rebuilding. But like Matt Nable's Ra's al Ghul, Merlyn's goals have become too convoluted that they ridiculously change over time too, because the season suffers from overwriting. It proves that the writers didn't know what to do with him but they still wanted to keep John Barrowman on the show. I'd prefer for Merlyn to stay dead at the end of Season 1 if this is what they were going to do.

Even Oliver suffers from overwriting this season compared to the first two. Unlike Nolan's Bruce Wayne, Oliver Queen in the first two seasons did evolve; starting his hero's journey as not a true "hero" until he reinvents his goals and identity as a tribute to Tommy Merlyn's memory. His hero's journey was completed upon beating Slade Wilson at the end of the season - by outsmarting him. He fulfilled his new found moral principles by refusing to give Slade the satisfaction of killing him; proving that unlike Slade, Oliver only killed to survive. I do think many people tend to overlook some glaring issues of the second half of Season 2, but I could still tolerate them because I found Oliver's arc so enriching. Which makes Season 3 even harder to swallow.

[The Dark Knight]

I haven't watched one episode of Arrow or Gotham. Simply not interested.

[riddler]

I just caught up on this show last night. Here are my overall sentiments;

I think Stephen Amell is excellent as the lead. I remember 3 years ago people saying he couldnt hack it or that Justin Hartley would be better, this guy carries the show. Now I did feel it suffered in the episodes when Oliver 'went away'.

I do think it has differed enough from batman. Initially it seemed like it was a copy of Batman but Starling city is different than Gotham city. Part of what makes gotham so dangerous is that crime bosses run it and have connections inside the police stations and D.A. offices so criminals can break the law and get away from it. Season 1 hinted at a corrupted legal system but they've since strayed from it. Also Batman generally works alone in most modern adaptations whereas we have the whole 'team arrow' thing going on here.

I wonder if DC attempting to set up their whole universe hampered the show? Don't get me wrong I loved the cross overs and am very excited about the prospect of them setting up a live action comic run on the small screen where characters can go in and out of each others series (I'm actually more excited about the TV shows coming than Batman vs Superman) but I think if they limited the crossing over, it would be more memorable when it does happen.

I did enjoy Brandon Routh's portrayal as Ray Palmer. I'm happy for him as he got a bad shake being unfairly blamed for Superman Returns. He's a big comic fan so hopefully he gets to live out his dream. Though I wish the show focused more on Oliver than the whole team arrow. Part of the intrigue of super heroes is they live dual lives where their loved ones have no idea what they do at night. It seems like with both this one and the flash, everyone around them knows who they are.

[BatmAngelus]

http://www.spoilertv.com/2015/09/arrow-season-4-promo-lq.html

Meh. For all the talk that they were going to change things up, it looks more of the same. The only thing different so far about Oliver seems to be that he's gone sleeveless, so the whole "Who are you?!" feels dumb.

Diggle's helmet looks dumb, too.