Arrow (2012 TV Series)

[BatmAngelus]

As much as I like the show, I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the way Ra's Al Ghul looks:

While the costume looks fine, I was hoping they'd at least give him more of a Ra's look with his hair. I thought the same thing when they first cast Matt Nable. It's not so much that it's a change from the comics, it's that he just looks like a regular bruiser when he's, well, the Demon's Head.

Then again, I shouldn't be surprised as the only actors to go through changes in appearance have been Stephen Amell in the flashbacks and Kelly Hu as China White and those are mainly achieved through wigs.

For now:
Arrow's Ra's costume > Dark Knight Trilogy Ra's costume
Arrow Ra's hair/facial hair < Dark Knight Trilogy Ra's hair/facial hair

[The Laughing Fish]

Since the actor playing Ra's is an Aussie, it's logical that he speaks in a refined English accent like Nyssa. When he rose out of the pool I honestly thought he was coming out of the Lazarus Pit at first.

Hey BatmAngelus, what did you think of last season overall? I thought it was going great during the first half, but in all honesty I thought the quality dipped a bit in the second half. The writing surrounding Deathstroke didn't convince me that much. So far, I've enjoyed The Flash more than the first couple of episodes of Arrow this season too.

[BatmAngelus]

I remember liking the second half of the season, but I do agree that Deathstroke's motivation should've been stronger for him to have turned that evil and I didn't like the idea of killing off Shado (who is a major character in the Green Arrow comics) to do it.

I also feel that Season 3's been uneven so far. The villain of the week format needs to take a backseat in favor of the overall story. I'm in the camp that doesn't like Laurel and felt that either Sara should've just stayed as Canary or Sara should've stayed dead since the pilot and Laurel's journey to becoming Canary could've replaced her much less sympathetic and much more irritating arc in Season 2.

I'm also kinda perplexed as to why DC wouldn't let the Arrow writers have Brandon Routh as Ted Kord instead of Ray Palmer. The character practically IS Kord- Kord Industries had been mentioned before, Kord is wealthy and has the wisecracking persona that Routh's character has, and the Blue Beetle armor would make a lot more sense for him to be developing than the Atom, especially since they want this show to deal with less super powers. Hopefully some kind of use for the Atom plays into the future.

Still, the upcoming Ra's episode looks promising.

[The Laughing Fish]

The Flash crossover and the episode with Ra's al Ghul were the best episodes of the season so far.

The Brave and The Bold episode gave the show much needed fun that I thought was lacking this season. The contrast of ideologies between Flash and Arrow was a nice touch, although that dialogue between Oliver and Lyla Michaels came across as patronizing to the audience. But it was still cool to see the supporting cast from both shows come together for a second time again.

I'm not impressed with Matt Nable as Ra's al Ghul, but I do like this take better than Liam Neeson's in terms of characterization; it feels closer to what I had in mind in the comics. I think it's likely confirmed that the Lazarus Pit exists in this show because Ra's commented about being challenged for the first time in 67 years. That and *SPOILER* Oliver is mortally stabbed at the end of his fight with Ra's. From hereon in, I think this season is going to turn for the best.

Brandon Routh has never impressed me as an actor, but here he plays Ray Palmer with a lot more charisma and confidence than anything he has ever done. Although I notice that Palmer comes across as a little stalkerish whenever he bumps into Felicity (cue in Superman Returns haters  ).

I also feel that Season 3's been uneven so far. The villain of the week format needs to take a backseat in favor of the overall story. I'm in the camp that doesn't like Laurel and felt that either Sara should've just stayed as Canary or Sara should've stayed dead since the pilot and Laurel's journey to becoming Canary could've replaced her much less sympathetic and much more irritating arc in Season 2.

I wonder why Sara Lance had to be killed off too. I'd prefer she stayed alive but shedding away from her Canary identity and become completely faithful to the League's cause; similar to being brainwashed and Laurel taking over her place as the Canary. I think it would work because we saw Oliver and Sara last season expressing different point of views morally.

I don't hate Laurel as much as lots of people do. She might have acted irrationally at times but I always thought anything she was doing was either based on her guilt for Tommy's death (which is why she turned to drugs and alcohol and taking her anger out on Arrow), or the trauma of dangerously coming close to getting killed on several occasions. Let's not forget that her sister cheated on her boyfriend, and they both came back when they were presumed dead. To be honest, I really don't like Thea. Spoiled brat who needs to be slapped. Her small fight with Arrow was pure comedy gold.

But I'll admit there's something about Katie Cassidy's demeanor that seems off to me. Kinda...to put it very blunty - "bitchy".



I think it could be Katie Cassidy's demeanor that puts people off

[BatmAngelus]

This latest episode really turned things around and was the best one of the season so far. I have a friend who hated the crossover and doesn't like The Flash, but I think the Flash has had the better season to date when it comes to moving the story along. Here, it felt like Arrow had been waiting until this episode to really get things going and I was grateful. Hopefully, they can keep it up like this for the rest of the season. Interested to see where they go from here.

As for Laurel, I'm all for flawed characters, but it feels like the writers have been deliberately trying to make her the most irrational one of the group who continues to make poor decisions. It doesn't help that they've turned Felicity from a one-off guest character into practically the new female lead, brought in a different actress/character as Black Canary who further overshadowed Laurel, and wrote full episodes featuring those characters while Laurel was completely absent.

[The Laughing Fish]

Some brilliant editor somehow added Lightsabers to Ra's al Ghul's action scenes in the mid-season finale.  WARNING - contains spoilers

[The Laughing Fish]

From hereon in, I think this season is going to turn for the best.

I was wrong. Oh dear god, I was SO wrong. 

I don't know about you BatmAngelus, but I thought this season has turned into a complete and utter disaster. Not only has this season progressively gotten worse, but it also ruined the entire show too. I won't give too much away but I'll use this as an example: how in the hell can the police and the entire public be fooled into thinking that Roy Harper was the Arrow all along...when everyone knows Roy was rescued by Arrow moments before he was about to be executed on LIVE television by a desperate maniac in season one?! Did the writers expect the audience to forget that little piece of continuity?

This season has managed to screw up nearly all of its well-developed characters: from Quentin Lance to Malcolm Merlyn, from Felicity Smoak to Oliver Queen too. The way the writers rehashed Lance's petty contempt for Arrow/Oliver again in the worst possible manner is unforgivable. All that good work in building Lance's arc is now ruined.

I gave this show a lot of credit in the first two seasons for doing a better job than Nolan's Batman movies when it came to character development, how the police reacting realistically to vigilantes, how the hero covers his tracks to avoid suspicion and the hero's relationships with other characters. Arrow was accused of copying ideas in Nolan's films, but I thought the show actually explored those ideas and not pay lip service to them. And I still stand by that.

But everything in this season is just as bad as everything I've complained about in Nolan's movies: poor character development, illogical plot points, poor motivations and illogical plot twists. For example, Oliver teaming up with Merlyn despite the fact that Merlyn was not only responsible for the Glades massacre, but also manipulated Thea into killing Sara and got everyone involved with the whole mess with Ra's al Ghul, is one of the worst examples of idiotic writing I've ever seen since Two-Face spared the Joker in TDK, and Batman framing himself for Two-Face's crimes at the end of the movie. I now hold the writers in the same level of disdain as I have for Nolan and Goyer.

It's such a shame that a promising show is falling apart like this. The only way for things to go back to normal is if a crossover with The Flash results in some kind of Flashpoint-style storyline and everything about this season is wiped out from memory. Because there's no believable way that Oliver can return to crime-fighting after everything that has happened this season.

[BatmAngelus]

Season 3 has been such a huge dip in quality with contrived drama.

Felicity's now a wet blanket. Oliver makes dumber decisions. Lance is petty and has digressed from his development (at least his original grudge against the Arrow made sense). The Hong Kong flashbacks have been relatively boring, with only the last few episodes' worth being relevant. The stories try to shock you for the sake of shocking you without really making much sense and the Oliver-Felicity romance took something that was initially a cute flirtation and turned it into something nauseating.

Ra's Al Ghul is all bark but no bite. For someone so dangerous, he's only really succeeded in killing a couple criminals and one of his own henchmen, yet spared both Maseo and Nyssa for betraying him and just let Oliver go on with the wedding despite Merlyn ratting him out.

I'm grateful for the Flash right now that it hasn't been reduced to this (yet) and seems to handle the Arrow characters better. Felicity's appearances on that show have made her feel like the old Felicity and Lance & Laurel were both more likable on there than they've been this season.

Disappointing. Hope the writers take note and step up the game in Season 4 'cause this has been the weakest season by far.

[The Laughing Fish]

Apparently, the show was supposed to have Harley Quinn for the third season, but those plans were scrapped because of the Suicide Squad movie. I guess they replaced her with Cupid?

Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/05/24/arrow-originally-had-big-plans-for-harley-quinn/

This season, we had Deadshot possibly killed off because of the same reason, and the Atom was originally Blue Beetle, but the showrunners had to change plans because of WB having possible plans for a movie adaptation. But at the same time, WB let the Barry Allen Flash headline his own show despite the fact that they're planning to adapt him in the movies? 

Source (dated back to last July): http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/07/26/no-arrow-for-ted-kord-dc-has-other-plans/

There were rumours that Slade Wilson and Amanda Waller may have been written out of the show to accommodate the SS movie too, but that's now been debunked.

Source: http://comicbook.com/2015/04/19/arrow-deathstroke-and-amanda-waller-are-not-off-the-table/

While it's confusing that WB can't make up their minds about characters appearing in different franchises, there's still no reason why this double standard could have affected the third season's low quality.

[BatmAngelus]

While it's confusing that WB can't make up their minds about characters appearing in different franchises, there's still no reason why this double standard could have affected the third season's low quality.

Exactly.

Cupid, Deadshot's apparent death, the Blue Beetle/Iron Man take on Atom, and the small roles for Slade and Waller were probably some of the least of Season 3's problems, compared to all the obvious contrived hoops they went through to keep Malcolm Merlyn alive and make Oliver team up with him, the convoluted Ra's Al Ghul storyline that kept contradicting itself, and the overemphasis on the Oliver-Felicity romance that reduced Felicity into a sobbing mess who only seemed to care about being with Oliver and little else.

Plus, with Legends of Tomorrow bringing Sara back from the dead and putting Oliver back into the Arrow costume, Season 3 seems completely pointless, with the only benefit being that some characters got to fulfill their costumed destinies.'

As discussed in the Daredevil thread, this would've been a stronger season if it was more like that show. For the hell of it, here's where I think they could've gone in Season 3:

Vinnie Jones's Brick as a Fisk-like metahuman mob boss, trying to take control of a vulnerable city that's dealing with the aftermath of Slade Wilson's terrorist attack. We could've had an actual Green Arrow villain as a foe that would've easily tied into the events on the Flash (You could say he was close to Central City when the particle accelerator went off and that's why he's invulnerable) and could've avoided another "The villain plans to destroy the city" finale by making the battle more about the city's soul.

Oliver's arc could've still revolved around his identity (Am I the Arrow or Oliver Queen?), but done in a better way. In the beginning, he could've completely devoted to himself to being the Arrow. He's living out of the Arrowcave. He's grown his beard out (much like how Amell had done it between seasons). Slade Wilson and Isabel Rochev wiped out his fortune, so he's seeing what it's like to live in the city and recognizes how it's like on the streets now (giving him the social crusader angle that Denny O'Neil gave the character in the 1970s). His Arrow has become kind of a modern day Robin Hood.

He thinks this is how he needs to live his life...until he discovers that Merlyn is still alive and he's turned Thea into a weapon. Thea doesn't know him as the Arrow, she knows him as Oliver, so in order to save his sister, he has to go back to being Oliver. And that's when the season story makes him figure out how to balance being a human being and a vigilante.

By the end of the season, he's figured out a way to be both- regaining his fortune and his company and stepping back into the spotlight as Oliver Queen while fighting crime at night and fighting for the underdog as the Green Arrow (yes, "Green"- if Season 1 was the Hood and Season 2 was the Arrow, I'd have him called Green Arrow already in Season 3, maybe to differentiate him from Roy's costume).

In terms of the supporting cast, I wouldn't have killed Sara off if they were going to only resurrect her again later. Considering how Lance was portrayed in Season 3, I would've preferred if he had passed from his injuries in Season 2 and, with Sara off with the League, Laurel would be forced to pick herself up and decide to take on the Black Canary persona in her sister's absence, as well as honor her father.

Wildcat could've still trained her, but I would've had a much older actor play him as a father figure to her, which could be poignant if she's still mourning her own dad at this point. Keep the fact that he used to be a vigilante, but in his younger days, maybe back when Oliver and Laurel were still kids. Maybe he was even a friend of Laurel's mom, Dinah (JSA reference) and that's how Laurel reconnects with him.

I'm fine with the Canary Cry being tech-based, but I would've had the STAR Labs people make it in an Arrow episode, instead of a Flash one, as an important step in Laurel evolving her Canary persona from her sister's.

Sara then could've returned to Starling City with Nyssa to take down Malcolm Merlyn (now that the League knows he's alive), but finds herself disagreeing with the League of Assassins' ways. She was kind of already on this path in Season 2, so this would've fit. Wanting a life away from being an assassin (and with her sister already wearing her Black Canary outfit), Sara would go off on her own at the end of the season to develop her new persona and then show up in Legends of Tomorrow as the White Canary (the white symbolizing her fresh start from the blood she's shed in the past).

I would've spent more time with Thea's arc into becoming Speedy, Diggle trying to balance his family life with his crimefighting life (let's remember, he was Oliver's original partner), and Roy in his new role as Arsenal. These all felt pushed to the sidelines in favor of the Oliver-Felicity romance.

Which I would've cut completely, now that I've seen how it plays out. By all means, show more of Felicity's life outside of being the tech girl, but do it in a way that makes sense with the character and makes her feel like an actual person. Instead of it revolving around being caught between two men, she could've been the one (instead of Ray) trying to pick up the pieces of Queen Consolidated (maybe with Walter Steel's help. Remember that guy?) and discovering her own talents, outside of hacking databases and security cameras. While Oliver's drowned himself in his vigilante persona, Felicity's moving away from the crime fighting and discovering her own talents with business (again, this would've fit as Felicity in the original comics was a CEO).

Maybe Felicity's also moving on with her life by dating someone else, but it would be a recurring civilian character. I would avoid having it be another superhero, like Palmer. Ed Raymond, her actual husband in the comics, would be preferable but considering that Ronnie in the Flash is older than her in this continuity, it would be odd to have her dating his dad. A civilian character could be representative of an "ordinary life" that she could have. Plus, let's face it, it was really pushing it how Felicity had a flirtation/relationship with three different superheroes.

The conflicts between Oliver and his friends can arise from their own identities/purposes in life- Diggle wants more time with his family and Felicity wants more time to help with the business, while Oliver's devoting all of himself into crime fighting, etc. By the end, everyone has to balance out and discover that they aren't happy unless they can fulfill both sides of themselves.

Lastly, the Hong Kong flashbacks this season felt tedious and Maseo wasn't nearly as interesting of a mentor as Slade was. While it was kind of a cool twist that Oliver wasn't always on the island, the world didn't feel nearly as dangerous and it robbed the impact of the pilot that he had spent so long trying to survive in the middle of nowhere. It also never convinced me that Waller thought this rich kid would make the ideal assassin, so her recruiting him made no sense.

I think it would've made more sense if Waller herself needed something from the island and had rescued Oliver only so that she could tell him what she needed from Lian Yu and throw him back in there to get it (maybe something among the wreckage of Fyers' crew). After all, he knows that place better than anyone alive and it would've had a sensible way of bringing him back there (since he needs to be back there to be rescued later on). Oliver could then discover that Waller was behind Fyers in Season 1 and turn on her, leading to her abandoning him on the island, etc. This way, we get the Oliver-Waller backstory and the "he was in Hong Kong" twist, without robbing too much of the impact of him being forced to survive on the island.

So there we go- a season that would've evolved Oliver from Batman-lite to his comic book counterpart complete with adapting one of his own villains, a Black Canary origin for Laurel that would've kept Sara alive, an exploration of Felicity that didn't involve soap opera romance, and a flashback storyline that would've fulfilled the same purpose without completely retconning Oliver's "five years on a deserted island."