Batman (1989) vs Batman Returns

[The Dark Knight]

LMAO

He was too 'weird' huh?

Whoever walks into a Tim Burton movie expecting something mainstream?

Indeed.

[burtongenius]

But how The Penguin was presented in Batman Returns is superior for me.
That makes perfect sense for everybody else, right?

Okay, you like the penguin that batman returns gave you.  You're still using the penguin as the crux of your choice, whether it is the comic book penguin or the movie penguin is of no difference.  And the lighting and sound all revolve around the movie which is different because of a new villain or villains.

[burtongenius]

LMAO

He was too 'weird' huh?

Whoever walks into a Tim Burton movie expecting something mainstream?

Now I can't help but wonder why Johnny Depp didn't get the nomination for Edward Scissorhands?  

Okay, first off, even the best of directors make movies that are under par.  M. Night Shyamalan got nominated razzies for Lady in the Water.  So its not like any director (or actor- but you have to consider that the actor is doing what the director wants but......) is impervious to a razzie. 
    Second off, you're right.  Edward Scissorhands was weird.   The whole movie was supposed to be weird on an emotional artistry level.  Batman isn't.  Nobody thought the first batman was freakishly weird even though burton directed it.  I know he was given more reigns in the second one but....   Its alright for burton to make weird guys in a batman movie I guess, but the penguin was too weird not to make a razzie.  Because he's supposed to be a batman villain, no way around it. And to say that they didn't understand where burton was going with it, to say they were just looking at the image is sort of denial to me.  But I don't know everything.  What I'm saying is that a lot of people do stuff intentionally thats just a bad idea.  Batman fans probably don't see that because they either are in denial or they really understand something that the rest of the world just can't get.  Something that the artist and the loyal fans understand but the common fan probably won't dig deep enough to get.

[Paul (ral)]

Nah, the rassie nom was wrong. 

[burtongenius]

Well, I don't blame them.  Wheneve people think of batman returns (if you ask them on the street) they think of the freaky, weird, evil penguin who talks about adult material the whole movie.  And he's short.  From a movie perspective, unless they took him seriously as a villain, he's going to get a razzie.  And he did.  I guess the rest of the world sees burtons penguin different from loyal fans, huh?

[johnnygobbs]

Well, I don't blame them.  Wheneve people think of batman returns (if you ask them on the street) they think of the freaky, weird, evil penguin who talks about adult material the whole movie.  And he's short.  From a movie perspective, unless they took him seriously as a villain, he's going to get a razzie.  And he did.  I guess the rest of the world sees burtons penguin different from loyal fans, huh?

So, do you like the Burton Batman films or not?

[burtongenius]

I'm what you call a Batman fan.  And just because of my last comment, it doesn't mean I think that devito was bad, its just that I don't blame them for giving devito a razzie.

This sites not supposed to take sides anyways, right.  If you like something, you ultimately think its better than another version, right?

[Paul (ral)]

If you like something, you ultimately think its better than another version, right?

You might think that it is better to you - you don't have to think it is better to everyone else.

[The Joker]

Okay, first off, even the best of directors make movies that are under par.  M. Night Shyamalan got nominated razzies for Lady in the Water.  So its not like any director (or actor- but you have to consider that the actor is doing what the director wants but......) is impervious to a razzie. 
    Second off, you're right.  Edward Scissorhands was weird.   The whole movie was supposed to be weird on an emotional artistry level.  Batman isn't.  Nobody thought the first batman was freakishly weird even though burton directed it.  I know he was given more reigns in the second one but....   Its alright for burton to make weird guys in a batman movie I guess, but the penguin was too weird not to make a razzie.  Because he's supposed to be a batman villain, no way around it. And to say that they didn't understand where burton was going with it, to say they were just looking at the image is sort of denial to me.  But I don't know everything.  What I'm saying is that a lot of people do stuff intentionally thats just a bad idea.  Batman fans probably don't see that because they either are in denial or they really understand something that the rest of the world just can't get.  Something that the artist and the loyal fans understand but the common fan probably won't dig deep enough to get.

Well of course no director is infallible when it comes to movie making. That's just common sense. Sometimes they hit, and sometimes they miss. However, to imply that Burton's "Batman Returns" was 'under par' is very debatable. Especially when you consider that there are fans that not only put "Batman Returns" as one of their favourite Tim Burton films of all time, but in addition actually prefer "Returns" over all of the modern day Batman films, including the later Nolan helmed series. If you want something 'under par' from Burton, try the "Planet of the Apes" remake. Now that is more conceivable.


With being 'freakishly weird', Burton's Batman films are anything but something that was constantly being thrown out to the mainstream movie going audience. Actually, what made me such a fan of Burton's "Batman" was the fact that it proved to a perfect counterpoint for the decades end: A glum, dark, but seductive film. Visually encapsulating the look of an urban landscape demolished by a decade of benign neglect, and portraying raw capitalism gone completely out of control. Basically (and I believe Burton and company pulled this off brilliantly), the sordid greed mentality of the 1980's exaggerated to the point of near-cartoon.


That being said, I won't argue just how 'freakishly weird' audiences found "Batman" in 1989, but to say the very least ... the film was anything but the standard run-of-the-mill films that audiences were accustomed to at that time. With "Batman Returns" and the Penguin, I believe the Penguin was simply an easy target due to the grotesqueness the character continually presented in both his visual look, and personality. To view the film, and say, "Oh, the Penguin in this is just too weird ... Devito's getting a nom for a Razzie now!" is just a great disservice to not only the film, but Devito's performance as well.


There was a reason why Burton chose not to go with a Penguin more akin to the comic book version at that time, just as there was a reason why Burton gave Devito the "Jimmy, the Hideous Penguin Boy" illustration to draw inspiration from. Clearly, Burton wanted something different, something intentionally more grotesque and unique, and audiences got just that. The Penguin may have technically been a Batman villain created in 1941, but the Penguin seen in "Batman Returns" was not it. This was a character that was thoroughly a Burton invention.  

[johnnygobbs]

Actually, what made me such a fan of Burton's "Batman" was the fact that it proved to a perfect counterpoint for the decades end: A glum, dark, but seductive film. Visually encapsulating the look of an urban landscape demolished by a decade of benign neglect, and portraying raw capitalism gone completely out of control. Basically (and I believe Burton and company pulled this off brilliantly), the sordid greed mentality of the 1980's exaggerated to the point of near-cartoon.

Exactly.  I first became fond of Burton's Batman films for a similar reason; that they accurately captured the tenor of the decade that had just passed.  Alexander Knox's headline pitch "Gotham's Greed" might as well apply to the rest of the world at the time.  In addition, Batman's hard-ass, no-nonsense vigilantism is much more symptomatic of the 70s and 80s than any other decade before or since, meaning that Burton's films are able to capture the true essence of what Batman represents far more than any other live action depiction before or since.